Nail it or fail again - What is the pass mark for the Raiders in 2019?

[gerg]

If Trent Barrett ever becomes our coach I'll hand in my membership pass.

Yeah I haven't seen anything from Barrett that would suggest he is going to make it as a successful NRL coach.

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[jedski]

Pass mark - top 4 after Round 25, and making it at least to the Preliminary final.

[dubby]

I think it's fair that I rate the following teams better than us, as to show my point:

1. Storm.
2. Roosters
3. Sharks (although they are getting older, no Lewis, and unless Holmes resigns soon that'll be a huge distraction)
4. Souths
5. Cowboys

The rest form a quagmire of teams whose form depends on a myriad of factors unique to each club, while adhering to tested factors such as injury, suspensions and the rep period.





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And who's fault it that? After 5 years in charge, who are we to blame for the fact there is at least 5 clubs, and honestly probably 3-5 more who are clearly better than that?

the level of which Dubby is completely and totally missing the point here is actually funny.
He's a toddler playing Pound-a-peg and struggling to understand basic concepts beyond what is literally in front of his face

I'm not missing the point.

If only Ricky, Don and Peter had the collective intellectual capacity to realize that we need to sign a high quality half! Or to fix the defensive frailties of Leilua! Or to address the distinct lack of confidence of defending a lead!

Pigman, you're one of the first to declare that no young players want to come to Canberra. Then you turn around and insinuate that it's the clubs fault they aren't attracting players.

Having a bet both ways?



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[dubby]

I'll ask the question again, name the teams gh members consider top 4.

Only the most ardent fans (read delusional) can honestly say we've a top 4 roster.

We don't. Ooh, but that's Ricky and Dons fault. No player wants to come here anyway, they all want to live near the beach, apparently. Still, Ricky and Dons fault.

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[Botman]

Christ you're **** thick. Haha.
Incredible stuff.

[gangrenous]

Many others are in the conversation for a Rep jersey in their position; Cotric, Croker, Leilua and Wighton.

Only one of those featured in conversations that occurred in 2018...

[simo]

Lets say you build houses for a living, youve got a plumber that you subby in who is awful and continually costs you money on jobs yet you dont actively try and replace him. Who is at fault?
Say this plumber miraculously turns down a massive development contract with you and heads off overseas. In what **** world isnt it your fault when you turn up on site in 6 months time with no one capable of doing your plumbing work? Do you blame the poor first year apprentice youve had to bring in? Or the sparky who youve decided might go ok at setting pans? No you dont. You blame the **** whos in charge of the site or the **** who put him in charge of it

[Botman]

The coach moved Wighton to fullback, he hasnt developed into a major factor
The coach brought in Austin, who had a career year in Yr 1 and failed to develop beyond that, declined sharply each year thereafter, he cost us 8 or more games in the last 2 years and was never replaced
The Coach brought in Sezer, who has not sniffed his level of play at the Titans under Stuart. Major regression at the most important position, entirely consistent with the Coach's career.
The Coach brought in Paulo and put his chips in the middle of the table with Boyd, 2 years later PV who he let go is a rep player, Paulo and Boyd have left us. We lose a stud and didn't even keep the fat slobs.

The team lacks discipline, it feels like at least once a game our players are being marched for back chat to officials, the team lacks focus, the team plays as if it is ill prepared to play 80 minutes most weeks, the team lacks consistency not only game to game but half to half, the team has made the finals (i.e top 8 in 16 teams) FOUR times in 5 year and our coach takes no responsibility in any public forum for any of this, instead choosing to point fingers in every which way but at himself, firmly establishing a culture within the playing group of ZERO accountability, enabled of course by a total lack of accountability in the head office, and this culture is visible throughout the playing squad.

These are the reasons we are not a successful team and not good enough to compete for a title. And the Coach has a role to play, and in most cases, THE major role... and Dubby wants to sit here and tell us we cant blame the coach for us not being successful this year, as if we all suddenly woke up and forgot the events that lead us here.

No one is going to bother answering hisquestion because it's the wrong question to be asking in year 6 of a coaches tenure.
If Stuart doesn't have a good enough team to contend for a title after 6 years, then he is clearly not the man for this job, and should be relieved of it.

Even if we can all agree there are circumstances beyond the club's control that make this job harder than most NRL HC jobs, we still need to find someone capable of overcoming them with more regularity than this. If this season isnt a contending season, Stuart will have done NOTHING to justify a 7th season, and produced no results strong enough that warrant him being trusted with another strip down and rebuild.

Stuart does not get to use the quality squad as an excuse for poor performance in year 6, when the quality of the squad is a direct result of the quality of his coaching.

[edwahu]

Yeah, I don't think Stuart deserves the luxury of two rebuilds.

The only scenario where I would think it's maybes ok is if it came out the club had frontloaded this year rather than sign players and ended up signing some big names as a result. I think that's become an almost essential recruiting tactic. Still the squad is good enough to make the 8 with a bit of effort.

[greeneyed]

Ricky Stuart has been fantastic for our club as a player, and as a coach he's taken us to a Preliminary Final... indeed won coach of the year while at this club. However, there is no doubt that the current squad is his squad. We've missed finals in four out of five years... and the last two years have been nowhere near good enough, given what the squad did in 2016.

Let's also not forget that the club has made the finals just three times in the past decade. The whole organisation has been, for the most part, under performing for a very long time. We have not won a premiership for 25 years and that's the longest premiership drought in the competition, apart from the Eels. I think the problems go far beyond the coach, it goes to the owners, board and management. There's clearly not been the right accountability structures right through the club for a long time.

In any event, if this squad does not make the top eight next year, the owners should give the organisation a massive shake up. They'll need a lot of outside help, some movers and shakers. But I have no doubt that they'll continue to sit on their hands and do nothing. I dearly hope none of that proves necessary... that this time next year, that it's been at least a top four finish. That's the minimum pass mark in my view. Can now only wait and see how it unfolds.

[edwahu]

Unfortunately the owners won't sack themselves.

[dubby]

Christ you're **** thick. Haha.
Incredible stuff.

Just answer the question.

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[hrundi89]

I agree with Dubby in as much as this isn't a top 4 side without another quality half.

Top 8 would be a success for me.

We SHOULD be a Top 4 side (based on the majority of our roster) but management and the coach haven't done the job in getting it sorted.

We SHOULD have been in the 8 the last 2 years and we weren't so that's clearly a fail mark.

[dubby]

"and Dubby wants to sit here and tell us we cant blame the coach for us not being successful this year, as if we all suddenly woke up and forgot the events that lead us here."

Please change your name from pigman to STRAWMAN. You're the master of all things straw.



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[gerg]

Christ you're **** thick. Haha.
Incredible stuff.

Just answer the question.

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It's not as simple as that, there are many factors involved. Are we a better squad than the Tigers in 2018 - absolutely, even with Hodgson out.

Our backline (and ability to score points) is not far behind the premiers. Comparing our side on paper to Melbourne I think we had a better squad. They played three or four different halves this year. Sure Munster was there but I thought his form was patchy across the season as a whole. Sharks limped through the year again with an ageing forward pack. I could really go on but Dubby how many games did you watch this year and think 'we should have won that game, we were in position and blew it' so clearly we have the personnel to compete with any side in the competition.

We lost 3 + games at the start of the year because of a lack of fitness and desire. The only games from about the first 10 rounds that we weren't in was Souths and Manly.

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[dubby]

It is that simple. Strawman, along with others make it seem that simple.
So I want strawpig to tell me quite simply which 3 teams are superior to ours?

If course a rugby league season Is not, because of all the variables that occur during the year.

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[greeneyed]

What's the question again?

[greeneyed]

Three teams superior to ours? Why is that the question again?

But given the performances this year, there were nine that were superior. And I don't think we're a stronger squad next year either. However, the Raiders have significantly under performed in the last two years as well... given that essentially the same squad finished second in 2016.

[gerg]

It is that simple. Strawman, along with others make it seem that simple.
So I want strawpig to tell me quite simply which 3 teams are superior to ours?

If course a rugby league season Is not, because of all the variables that occur during the year.

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It isn't that simple.

Let's turn it around for arguments sake. If we had Bellamy or Robinson coaching us over the past 5 years would our squad be top 4? Our squad may not have been top 4 but you can bet your **** we would have made the finals more than once.

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[dubby]

It is that simple. Strawman, along with others make it seem that simple.
So I want strawpig to tell me quite simply which 3 teams are superior to ours?

If course a rugby league season Is not, because of all the variables that occur during the year.

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It isn't that simple.

Let's turn it around for arguments sake. If we had Bellamy or Robinson coaching us over the past 5 years would our squad be top 4? Our squad may not have been top 4 but you can bet your **** we would have made the finals more than once.

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But you just contradicted yourself by making it simplistic: "oh if we had another coach"

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[greeneyed]

I don't understand the discussion. We know that for the past two seasons, there have been nine better squads. Yet in 2016 there was one or two better squads. And there was no major difference in the personnel across the three seasons. Depth was probably a little weaker in the past two seasons than 2016, but not the top 17.

2019 will have a clearly different line up.

Across all the years, it is the accountability of the club, management and football departments, to deliver top four squads. I'll guess we'll see what squad is delivered next year, once they play.

[Botman]

So I want strawpig to tell me quite simply which 3 teams are superior to ours?

No one is going to bother answering his question because it's the wrong question to be asking in year 6 of a coach's tenure.
If Stuart doesn't have a good enough team to contend for a title after 6 years, then he is clearly not the man for this job, and should be relieved of it.

Even if we can all agree there are circumstances beyond the club's control that make this job harder than most NRL HC jobs, we still need to find someone capable of overcoming them with more regularity than this. If this season isnt a contending season, Stuart will have done NOTHING to justify a 7th season, and produced no results strong enough that warrant him being trusted with another strip down and rebuild.

Stuart does not get to use the quality squad as an excuse for poor performance in year 6, when the quality of the squad is a direct result of the quality of his coaching.

[gerg]

It is that simple. Strawman, along with others make it seem that simple.
So I want strawpig to tell me quite simply which 3 teams are superior to ours?

If course a rugby league season Is not, because of all the variables that occur during the year.

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It isn't that simple.

Let's turn it around for arguments sake. If we had Bellamy or Robinson coaching us over the past 5 years would our squad be top 4? Our squad may not have been top 4 but you can bet your **** we would have made the finals more than once.

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But you just contradicted yourself by making it simplistic: "oh if we had another coach"

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Well it is too simplistic to just look at a bunch of players names on paper and say where should each team finish. Do you disagree that Bellamy or Robinson would have got better results out of our squad?

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[dubby]

Three teams superior to ours? Why is that the question again?

But given the performances this year, there were nine that were superior. And I don't think we're a stronger squad next year either. However, the Raiders have significantly under performed in the last two years as well... given that essentially the same squad finished second in 2016.

People saying we're a top 4 team. I disagree. I asked strawpig to name his top 4. He didn't.
I asked what makes our team top 4. Haven't got a response yet.

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[dubby]

It is that simple. Strawman, along with others make it seem that simple.
So I want strawpig to tell me quite simply which 3 teams are superior to ours?

If course a rugby league season Is not, because of all the variables that occur during the year.

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It isn't that simple.

Let's turn it around for arguments sake. If we had Bellamy or Robinson coaching us over the past 5 years would our squad be top 4? Our squad may not have been top 4 but you can bet your **** we would have made the finals more than once.

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But you just contradicted yourself by making it simplistic: "oh if we had another coach"

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Well it is too simplistic to just look at a bunch of players names on paper and say where should each team finish. Do you disagree that Bellamy or Robinson would have got better results out of our squad?

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You can't say one way or another.

Bellamy has had Smith, Cronk and Slater in his team. To see their significance, notice how Qld and Australia lost without them.

Robinson has a sombrero. He also had Keary and Cronk as halves.

We had Sezer and Williams this year, and a totally one trick pony in Austin.

You are not comparing apples with apples.

Gerg, people are saying "our squad is top 4". By their simplistic view, I'm asking them to justify how. And no one is answering.



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[dubby]

So I want strawpig to tell me quite simply which 3 teams are superior to ours?

No one is going to bother answering his question because it's the wrong question to be asking in year 6 of a coach's tenure.
If Stuart doesn't have a good enough team to contend for a title after 6 years, then he is clearly not the man for this job, and should be relieved of it.

Even if we can all agree there are circumstances beyond the club's control that make this job harder than most NRL HC jobs, we still need to find someone capable of overcoming them with more regularity than this. If this season isnt a contending season, Stuart will have done NOTHING to justify a 7th season, and produced no results strong enough that warrant him being trusted with another strip down and rebuild.

Stuart does not get to use the quality squad as an excuse for poor performance in year 6, when the quality of the squad is a direct result of the quality of his coaching.

You forget the first season or two Ricky inherited Furnes team. He hasn't had 6 years, has he?

Again, I'm not saying his results are good enough. Ricky is under pressure for 2019. He needs to be.

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[gerg]

It is that simple. Strawman, along with others make it seem that simple.
So I want strawpig to tell me quite simply which 3 teams are superior to ours?

If course a rugby league season Is not, because of all the variables that occur during the year.

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It isn't that simple.

Let's turn it around for arguments sake. If we had Bellamy or Robinson coaching us over the past 5 years would our squad be top 4? Our squad may not have been top 4 but you can bet your **** we would have made the finals more than once.

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But you just contradicted yourself by making it simplistic: "oh if we had another coach"

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Well it is too simplistic to just look at a bunch of players names on paper and say where should each team finish. Do you disagree that Bellamy or Robinson would have got better results out of our squad?

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You can't say one way or another.

Bellamy has had Smith, Cronk and Slater in his team. To see their significance, notice how Qld and Australia lost without them.

Robinson has a sombrero. He also had Keary and Cronk as halves.

We had Sezer and Williams this year, and a totally one trick pony in Austin.

You are not comparing apples with apples.

Gerg, people are saying "our squad is top 4". By their simplistic view, I'm asking them to justify how. And no one is answering.



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Because we all sat back and enjoyed 2016 where we got to the top 4. With the same nucleus of players.

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[dubby]

We overachieved. I said in 2016 we weren't top4, and I maintain that. Hell, Parra finished top4 last year.... there's anomalies all the time.

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[dubby]

It's just ironic that strawpig knows we struggle too attract the best talent, he's said it for years. Only now he's blamingRicky and Don.
We've done better under Stuart, especially considering what Henry and Elliott recruited..... but it's still not good enough.
We really need a 7. If we had a good 7 and 6 I think we'd make top 4 or 5.

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[greeneyed]

Three teams superior to ours? Why is that the question again?

But given the performances this year, there were nine that were superior. And I don't think we're a stronger squad next year either. However, the Raiders have significantly under performed in the last two years as well... given that essentially the same squad finished second in 2016.

People saying we're a top 4 team. I disagree. I asked strawpig to name his top 4. He didn't.
I asked what makes our team top 4. Haven't got a response yet.

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It's the wrong discussion, IMO. We as fans should expect that our club delivers a top four team every year. If the Raiders were a high performance organisation, they'd be aiming to contend for the premiership every single year. Do you know how many times the Raiders have been top four since the turn of the century? Twice. Since the NRL started, they have been top four three times. Genuine contenders three times in the past 20 years. It's consistent under performance. It's because there is no genuine accountability at the club.

The Raiders have failed to make the finals seven times in the past decade. The club has finished 10th or worse in the past six seasons. When do the owners and fans start to ask... what's going wrong?

If we get a top four finish next year... I'll say its a pass mark. Otherwise, the whole club needs a massive shake up. The owners need to get the team in place... throughout the club... that will deliver some success.

[Beejay]

Ricky Stuart has been fantastic for our club as a player, and as a coach he's taken us to a Preliminary Final... indeed won coach of the year while at this club. However, there is no doubt that the current squad is his squad. We've missed finals in four out of five years... and the last two years have been nowhere near good enough, given what the squad did in 2016.

Let's also not forget that the club has made the finals just three times in the past decade. The whole organisation has been, for the most part, under performing for a very long time. We have not won a premiership for 25 years and that's the longest premiership drought in the competition, apart from the Eels. I think the problems go far beyond the coach, it goes to the owners, board and management. There's clearly not been the right accountability structures right through the club for a long time.

In any event, if this squad does not make the top eight next year, the owners should give the organisation a massive shake up. They'll need a lot of outside help, some movers and shakers. But I have no doubt that they'll continue to sit on their hands and do nothing. I dearly hope none of that proves necessary... that this time next year, that it's been at least a top four finish. That's the minimum pass mark in my view. Can now only wait and see how it unfolds.

It's been said by a few on here many times; This is well beyond Ricky Stuart, even accounting for his obvious flaws as a first grade coach in 2018.

It's the acceptance of mediocrity, and the wilful ignorance that they are doing so.

[dubby]

Steve, every year you have 16 clubs aiming for top 8.

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[greeneyed]

And in the past decade we have consistently failed to do it! I might say I'm tired and worn down by the consistent failure! Or have I done that already!

[gerg]

We overachieved. I said in 2016 we weren't top4, and I maintain that. Hell, Parra finished top4 last year.... there's anomalies all the time.

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You could say that or you could say the team played to it's potential. A good coach should be drawing the best out of every player, every week, every year.

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[dubby]

We overachieved. I said in 2016 we weren't top4, and I maintain that. Hell, Parra finished top4 last year.... there's anomalies all the time.

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You could say that or you could say the team played to it's potential. A good coach should be drawing the best out of every player, every week, every year.

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Like Wayne Bennett did at Newcastle?

And Bellamy did with a team millions over the cap?
Like Robbo does witha sombrero?

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