Coronavirus

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gangrenous
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by gangrenous »

It’s not about “safe”. It’s about weighing risk.

Currently the rate and risk of death from the vaccines is higher than covid in certain age groups. There are viable alternatives with (at least from the information available now) less risk than both. As long as there is a manageable timeframe for the alternatives the risk decision is pretty clear.
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greeneyed
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by greeneyed »

Manbush wrote: May 8, 2021, 9:02 pm As you acknowledged earlier no vaccine is without risk, no medicine is without risk, it’s safe for 99.9999% of the population, at what point do you consider it safe, 1 in 1,000,000, 1 in 10,000,000?
We've been told in this thread that there is a vaccine which has caused virtually no deaths. I'll consider that one safe. The Australian government is just sitting around doing virtually nothing, hoping that people take the vaccine that they're producing in mass quantities that could kill you. It's not good enough. They should be moving heaven and earth to get the capability to offer the safe vaccine... the one that's being rolled out to virtually everyone in the USA.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Manbush »

“Virtually no deaths” isn’t the same as no deaths GE that’s why I asked at what point would you consider it safe and worth the risk. I’m no fan of this government nor how they’ve handled things but I think the risks are being over stated (not the numbers but how negligible they are).

Nothing is without risk, the food you eat, any time you leave the house but at what point is the risk worth living a life for.
I bow down to thee oh great Nickman, the wisest of the wise, your political adroitness is unsurpassed, your sagacity is unmatched, your wisdom shines through on this forum amongst us mere mortals as bright as your scalp under the light of a full moon, never shall I doubt your analytical prowess again. You are my hero, my lord, my savior, may you accept my offerings so you continue to bless us with your genius.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Manbush »

gangrenous wrote: May 8, 2021, 9:09 pm It’s not about “safe”. It’s about weighing risk.

Currently the rate and risk of death from the vaccines is higher than covid in certain age groups. There are viable alternatives with (at least from the information available now) less risk than both. As long as there is a manageable timeframe for the alternatives the risk decision is pretty clear.
I wouldn’t say the risk of the vaccine is worse than Covid for any age group especially with mutations the longer people drag their feet for and the long term effects Covid has on some survivor regardless of age. (Happy to be proven wrong if anyone has statistics)

Will agree on timeframe though if the government can get the other ones out quickly fair enough but if not then we’ve got to consider the benefits of opening the country back up.
I bow down to thee oh great Nickman, the wisest of the wise, your political adroitness is unsurpassed, your sagacity is unmatched, your wisdom shines through on this forum amongst us mere mortals as bright as your scalp under the light of a full moon, never shall I doubt your analytical prowess again. You are my hero, my lord, my savior, may you accept my offerings so you continue to bless us with your genius.
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greeneyed
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by greeneyed »

Manbush wrote: May 8, 2021, 10:32 pm “Virtually no deaths” isn’t the same as no deaths GE that’s why I asked at what point would you consider it safe and worth the risk. I’m no fan of this government nor how they’ve handled things but I think the risks are being over stated (not the numbers but how negligible they are).

Nothing is without risk, the food you eat, any time you leave the house but at what point is the risk worth living a life for.
“The risk from the mRNA vaccines is undefined, it's so miniscule.” is what I was told by a doctor whose medical opinions I trust. The Australian government has mismanaged the vaccine roll out so badly that they are now peddling vaccines that are comparatively unsafe. How they’re still on the market I don’t know. It’s now up to the Australian government to get safe vaccine supplies to its people. Once it does that, things can return to normal. We’re actually pretty close to that now. No one should be expected to be put at risk by an unsafe vaccine or by foolish decisions. Thankfully the State governments should stop the latter. Pushing unsafe vaccines onto the population is a sure way of giving a massive boost to the anti vaxers.
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the bone
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by the bone »

Countries like Australia and NZ that have essentially squashed the virus should be at the back of the queue when it comes to procuring overseas vaccines. Countries where the virus is spreading should be given be priority. The Australian Govt should be working as fast as they can to put together a deal to manufacture the Pfizer and/or Moderna vaccines in Australia, similar to the Astra Zeneca/CSL deal.

As for the AZ vaccine, I’m with Manbush in that I think the hysteria around the risk of blood clots is being well overblown, and sadly has given the anti-vax crowd a nice shot in the arm (pun intended).

P.S. I’m booked in to get the J&J vaccine this afternoon.
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the bone
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by the bone »

Also, western countries are going to need to be careful around the messaging of who’s getting what vaccine i.e. if western countries start shunning AZ, but telling poorer or developing countries that it’s all good for them, you start getting the appearance of (if not outright) inequities. Obviously there’s always a risk profile argument (i.e. AZ is more worthwhile in a country like India now), but that is going to have to be clearly communicated, something which world health authorities have struggled with throughout the pandemic
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by gangrenous »

Manbush wrote:
gangrenous wrote: May 8, 2021, 9:09 pm It’s not about “safe”. It’s about weighing risk.

Currently the rate and risk of death from the vaccines is higher than covid in certain age groups. There are viable alternatives with (at least from the information available now) less risk than both. As long as there is a manageable timeframe for the alternatives the risk decision is pretty clear.
I wouldn’t say the risk of the vaccine is worse than Covid for any age group especially with mutations the longer people drag their feet for and the long term effects Covid has on some survivor regardless of age. (Happy to be proven wrong if anyone has statistics)

Will agree on timeframe though if the government can get the other ones out quickly fair enough but if not then we’ve got to consider the benefits of opening the country back up.
Currently in Australia deaths in under 50s is up 2-0 to vaccines isn’t it?

I don’t think there’s strong evidence that AZ is effective against the mutations either.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Dr Zaius »

I think that people get too caught up thinking about the risk of an individual v risk across an entire population.

You see it with the disease. People minimise the disease saying that you have a 99% chance of living. That's fine at an individual level but across the whole population, a lot of people are going to die.

People minimise the disease saying it mainly effects older people. That's cold comfort to my colleague whose 40 year old brother died this week in India.

When the disease rolls through a whole population, you see every manifestation that it has to offer. The weird clots it causes, loss of limbs, strokes, organ failure, loss of smell, long covid, healthy young adults dying, multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children. The whole shebang. The risk to the individual remains low, but the risk to the population is not.

It's the same with the vaccine. The risk to the individual is low, and I'm certainly not discouraging MB or anyone else who wants it from getting it, provided that they are aware of the risk. I'm not saying that we should pull it. What I'm saying is that if we use it to vaccinate the entire population, those rare side effects will occur often. And while we have no community transmissions in this country we have time to source and roll out a safer vaccine.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Sterlk »

Dr Zaius wrote: May 8, 2021, 6:32 pm We should be planning our own mRNA manufacturing facilities,but we are not.
Aren't we? I thought within the last month or so the Victorian government announced they were going to invest a whole bunch of cash doing exactly this, and the Feds later went in on it too.
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gangrenous
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by gangrenous »

I think they put up 50M but there were no takers? Think one of the capable groups said it’ll take at least 150M but their focus is currently elsewhere.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Dr Zaius »

I hadn't heard that. Well that's good news.

Again it seems to have come from states rather than federal initiative.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Manbush »

gangrenous wrote: May 9, 2021, 7:51 am
Manbush wrote:
gangrenous wrote: May 8, 2021, 9:09 pm It’s not about “safe”. It’s about weighing risk.

Currently the rate and risk of death from the vaccines is higher than covid in certain age groups. There are viable alternatives with (at least from the information available now) less risk than both. As long as there is a manageable timeframe for the alternatives the risk decision is pretty clear.
I wouldn’t say the risk of the vaccine is worse than Covid for any age group especially with mutations the longer people drag their feet for and the long term effects Covid has on some survivor regardless of age. (Happy to be proven wrong if anyone has statistics)

Will agree on timeframe though if the government can get the other ones out quickly fair enough but if not then we’ve got to consider the benefits of opening the country back up.
Currently in Australia deaths in under 50s is up 2-0 to vaccines isn’t it?

I don’t think there’s strong evidence that AZ is effective against the mutations either.
Nope sorry Covid is winning deaths in u50s in Australia, then there’s also the long term damage to some survivors regardless of age.

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/cov ... up-and-sex

As for AZ effective against mutations it has shown to effective against some. That wasn’t my point with mutations though, the more chances for a virus to spread the more it will mutate, so herd immunity reduces mutations
I bow down to thee oh great Nickman, the wisest of the wise, your political adroitness is unsurpassed, your sagacity is unmatched, your wisdom shines through on this forum amongst us mere mortals as bright as your scalp under the light of a full moon, never shall I doubt your analytical prowess again. You are my hero, my lord, my savior, may you accept my offerings so you continue to bless us with your genius.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Manbush »

Dr Zaius wrote: May 9, 2021, 8:21 am I think that people get too caught up thinking about the risk of an individual v risk across an entire population.

You see it with the disease. People minimise the disease saying that you have a 99% chance of living. That's fine at an individual level but across the whole population, a lot of people are going to die.

People minimise the disease saying it mainly effects older people. That's cold comfort to my colleague whose 40 year old brother died this week in India.

When the disease rolls through a whole population, you see every manifestation that it has to offer. The weird clots it causes, loss of limbs, strokes, organ failure, loss of smell, long covid, healthy young adults dying, multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children. The whole shebang. The risk to the individual remains low, but the risk to the population is not.

It's the same with the vaccine. The risk to the individual is low, and I'm certainly not discouraging MB or anyone else who wants it from getting it, provided that they are aware of the risk. I'm not saying that we should pull it. What I'm saying is that if we use it to vaccinate the entire population, those rare side effects will occur often. And while we have no community transmissions in this country we have time to source and roll out a safer vaccine.
I am looking at the risk across the entire population though not just individual risk, going by the odds you provided if 100% of Australians got the AZ vaccine (won’t happen as many got Pfizer and some have medical reasons) then across our whole population we’d be looking at 125 to 250 deaths for 100% herd immunity that’s a ridiculously low number for the benefits to the entire population.
I bow down to thee oh great Nickman, the wisest of the wise, your political adroitness is unsurpassed, your sagacity is unmatched, your wisdom shines through on this forum amongst us mere mortals as bright as your scalp under the light of a full moon, never shall I doubt your analytical prowess again. You are my hero, my lord, my savior, may you accept my offerings so you continue to bless us with your genius.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Manbush »

Dr Zaius wrote: May 9, 2021, 9:04 am I hadn't heard that. Well that's good news.

Again it seems to have come from states rather than federal initiative.
When we have science deniers in charge that shouldn’t be surprising.
I bow down to thee oh great Nickman, the wisest of the wise, your political adroitness is unsurpassed, your sagacity is unmatched, your wisdom shines through on this forum amongst us mere mortals as bright as your scalp under the light of a full moon, never shall I doubt your analytical prowess again. You are my hero, my lord, my savior, may you accept my offerings so you continue to bless us with your genius.
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gangrenous
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by gangrenous »

So Manbush.

God comes to you and says he can cure Covid for you if you hang 100 Australians. But if you wait 6 months you get the same cure, over which period perhaps 15 people will die.

You’re stringing them up?
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: May 9, 2021, 8:21 am I think that people get too caught up thinking about the risk of an individual v risk across an entire population.

You see it with the disease. People minimise the disease saying that you have a 99% chance of living. That's fine at an individual level but across the whole population, a lot of people are going to die.

People minimise the disease saying it mainly effects older people. That's cold comfort to my colleague whose 40 year old brother died this week in India.

When the disease rolls through a whole population, you see every manifestation that it has to offer. The weird clots it causes, loss of limbs, strokes, organ failure, loss of smell, long covid, healthy young adults dying, multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children. The whole shebang. The risk to the individual remains low, but the risk to the population is not.

It's the same with the vaccine. The risk to the individual is low, and I'm certainly not discouraging MB or anyone else who wants it from getting it, provided that they are aware of the risk. I'm not saying that we should pull it. What I'm saying is that if we use it to vaccinate the entire population, those rare side effects will occur often. And while we have no community transmissions in this country we have time to source and roll out a safer vaccine.
I am looking at the risk across the entire population though not just individual risk, going by the odds you provided if 100% of Australians got the AZ vaccine (won’t happen as many got Pfizer and some have medical reasons) then across our whole population we’d be looking at 125 to 250 deaths for 100% herd immunity that’s a ridiculously low number for the benefits to the entire population.
I'd prefer to go with no deaths from the vaccine. That's achievable in this country, at least from now on in.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Manbush »

gangrenous wrote: May 9, 2021, 11:51 am So Manbush.

God comes to you and says he can cure Covid for you if you hang 100 Australians. But if you wait 6 months you get the same cure, over which period perhaps 15 people will die.

You’re stringing them up?
Yep especially if I can pick the 100.
I bow down to thee oh great Nickman, the wisest of the wise, your political adroitness is unsurpassed, your sagacity is unmatched, your wisdom shines through on this forum amongst us mere mortals as bright as your scalp under the light of a full moon, never shall I doubt your analytical prowess again. You are my hero, my lord, my savior, may you accept my offerings so you continue to bless us with your genius.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Manbush »

Dr Zaius wrote: May 9, 2021, 12:45 pm ]I'd prefer to go with no deaths from the vaccine. That's achievable in this country, at least from now on in.
Ideally yes but is it really achievable and at what time frame and societal costs?
I bow down to thee oh great Nickman, the wisest of the wise, your political adroitness is unsurpassed, your sagacity is unmatched, your wisdom shines through on this forum amongst us mere mortals as bright as your scalp under the light of a full moon, never shall I doubt your analytical prowess again. You are my hero, my lord, my savior, may you accept my offerings so you continue to bless us with your genius.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: May 9, 2021, 12:45 pm ]I'd prefer to go with no deaths from the vaccine. That's achievable in this country, at least from now on in.
Ideally yes but is it really achievable and at what time frame and societal costs?
End of the year and limited social cost.

The mRNA vaccines are delivered 3 weeks apart. The AZ 3 months. Once we get our hands on enough mRNA we can roll it out much quicker, provided we take a leaf out of the US vaccine delivery playbook
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Botman »

are we still talking about vaccines?
*yawn* i've been vaccinated for ages now... what's wrong with the rest of you?!
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by FuiFui BradBrad »

Botman wrote:are we still talking about vaccines?
*yawn* i've been vaccinated for ages now... what's wrong with the rest of you?!
We’re just jealous we don’t have the 5G reception and direct line to Bill like you have now
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by The Nickman »

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
Botman wrote:are we still talking about vaccines?
*yawn* i've been vaccinated for ages now... what's wrong with the rest of you?!
We’re just jealous we don’t have the 5G reception and direct line to Bill like you have now
Can’t disagree with this, we went down to the family farm for Mothering Day to have lunch with both my vaccinated parents and the reception was the best it’s ever been!
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by T_R »

The Nickman wrote: May 10, 2021, 8:42 am
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
Botman wrote:are we still talking about vaccines?
*yawn* i've been vaccinated for ages now... what's wrong with the rest of you?!
We’re just jealous we don’t have the 5G reception and direct line to Bill like you have now
Can’t disagree with this, we went down to the family farm for Mothering Day to have lunch with both my vaccinated parents and the reception was the best it’s ever been!
You didn't find them trying to sell you Microsoft products the whole time annoying?
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by The Nickman »

T_R wrote: May 10, 2021, 10:39 am
The Nickman wrote: May 10, 2021, 8:42 am
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
Botman wrote:are we still talking about vaccines?
*yawn* i've been vaccinated for ages now... what's wrong with the rest of you?!
We’re just jealous we don’t have the 5G reception and direct line to Bill like you have now
Can’t disagree with this, we went down to the family farm for Mothering Day to have lunch with both my vaccinated parents and the reception was the best it’s ever been!
You didn't find them trying to sell you Microsoft products the whole time annoying?
The **** pop-ups were getting a bit much by the end of the meal I have to admit.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Off »

I won't be injecting until these ***** offer me money to, I'll only accept 5k.
This place is woke.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by -PJ- »

The monster had a COVID-19 injection today. She’s booked in for a 2nd jab in 3 months.

Funny thing- She warned MrsPJ she may have to do the ole girls Satd shopping if she develops the wobbles in the next 24-72hrs..
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Azza
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Azza »

Is it true that after your second jab you start dancing with these leet skills

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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Northern Raider »

Azza wrote: May 20, 2021, 10:17 am Is it true that after your second jab you start dancing with these leet skills

Don't think Bill Gates could look any more uncomfortable if he tried. :lol:
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-TW-
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by -TW- »

I still don't understand what the point of this was.

A bunch of white guys butchering an attempt at hyping their product

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Re: Coronavirus

Post by gerg »

Question wrote:I won't be injecting until these **** offer me money to, I'll only accept 5k.
I dunno about 5k, but 5g could be a goer.
Shoving it in your face since 2017
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Manbush »

Azza wrote: May 20, 2021, 10:17 am Is it true that after your second jab you start dancing with these leet skills

I’ll tell you in a month after I’ve had my second dose.
I bow down to thee oh great Nickman, the wisest of the wise, your political adroitness is unsurpassed, your sagacity is unmatched, your wisdom shines through on this forum amongst us mere mortals as bright as your scalp under the light of a full moon, never shall I doubt your analytical prowess again. You are my hero, my lord, my savior, may you accept my offerings so you continue to bless us with your genius.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Azza »

-TW- wrote: May 20, 2021, 12:46 pm I still don't understand what the point of this was.

A bunch of white guys butchering an attempt at hyping their product

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
Butchered? Windows 95 was the no1 operating system for years, despite being an absolute abomination.

Get with the times you fool and start prancing.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Northern Raider »

Azza wrote: May 20, 2021, 2:58 pm
-TW- wrote: May 20, 2021, 12:46 pm I still don't understand what the point of this was.

A bunch of white guys butchering an attempt at hyping their product

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
Butchered? Windows 95 was the no1 operating system for years, despite being an absolute abomination.

Get with the times you fool and start prancing.
Larry Page didn't do the drunken uncle dance on stage with other Google execs. That's why nobody owns a Chromebook.
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-TW-
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by -TW- »

Azza wrote:
-TW- wrote: May 20, 2021, 12:46 pm I still don't understand what the point of this was.

A bunch of white guys butchering an attempt at hyping their product

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
Butchered? Windows 95 was the no1 operating system for years, despite being an absolute abomination.

Get with the times you fool and start prancing.
They've released some absolute stinkers of OS

95, ME, Vista, Windows 8

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