2022

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BadnMean
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Re: 2022

Post by BadnMean »

Billy Walker wrote: January 1, 2022, 3:50 pm

I’m still trying to get my head around what Greengirl told me about being fined for not expending the cap. For arguments sake if Croker retired and Hodgo got an early release before kick off 2022 I imagine we would be in a bit of a bind. Not a lot of talent on the market to go after now, so do you just end up getting the best two replacements you can and then throwing around top ups to players who may not deserve it in order to avoid a fine?
I'd imagine in that situation you can make your case to the auditor that here are our books, we HAD allocated 95% of the cap but for said reasons some of it dissolved and here we are. A genuine attempt to spend the correct amount was clearly made.

They might hand down a fine but suspend it in that case, pending to see if you are taking the piss or genuine.

There would be precedent somewhere I just don't follow other clubs cap closely enough to know.
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

Botman wrote: January 1, 2022, 7:33 pm it truly is what separates the juggernauts from the also rans
We can bitch and complain about the advantages certain teams have, and how life isnt fair.. we'll always bitch about it. Blah, blah, blah

Reality is the good teams who good year on year are good not because they're cheating or the refs hand them wins
it because they manage the cap brilliantly and are excellently coached
The roosters are chief among them... and spare me the cap sombraro nonsense. Practically a club like the dogs or tigers or knights are no more or less advantaged in certain ways to the roosters. They just do it better

If you manage your salary cap and roster well and have a good coach, you can win a comp in this league.
The salary cap is really the most ineffective system. You only have to look at the consistency of teams both at the top and bottom to demonstrate why it is ineffective

Purchasing power/location is the first For example, are you really suggesting that the Roosters are in no way advantaged by the system when compared to the Knights or Raiders or the Cowboys or the Warriors. Even the Tigers (although not as much).

Those 4 clubs just can’t attract meaningful talent unless they pay significant overs. Think of it this way, if you are from Sydney and let’s face it a lot of them would want to live on the Eastern or Northern Suburbs of the city, why would you want to move to Canberra, Newcastle, Townsville or Auckland unless you had no other choice - i.e no team in Sydney wants you. That’s not a knock on these places but this has been proven on multiple occasions - tell me the last high profile player in their prime that has moved to these areas. I would even add Penrith to that list.

Another problem with the salary cap is how do you administer or put in new teams effectively. Have a look at the Dolphins for example. At this point in time, they may become the worst team in the history of RL which would be a terrible result for the game at large particularly after the standard/score lines of the last couple of seasons.They are going to have to spend their salary cap when there is practically nobody decent available for them to purchase. At least with a draft or some other system (a points system like the NRLW are using for example) you could allow the Dolphins to essentially grab a hold of a few decent players and giving them a chance to be competitive

The last problem with the salary cap is its policing and transparency - this is the biggest problem. On every occasion that a club had been found to have been systematically rorted the cap, it has not been uncovered by the NRL and its auditing processes but rather from internal whistleblowers. If the NRL can’t police it properly, how can anybody have any faith in the system?
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Re: 2022

Post by Botman »

The salary cap is the ONLY reason a club like ours has even a chance to compete, and maybe even exist.
Go and check european soccer and let me know how clubs with our market share go when a salary cap doesnt exist.

Reality check, pal. If the NRL was run without a salary cap, and it was just dog eat dog, they'd have sold our damn license to the highest bidder 10 years ago. Hard to be competitve when you're the Perth **** Reds. What the salary cap does is provide is a baseline level of parity... and sure, other factors like life style, climate, beaches what-have-you matter, but the simple reality is, the only thing really holding this club back is itself.

There is absolutely nothing stopping us from being an excellently managed roster with excellent coaching. Can we attract the highest level talent alive? NO. But that just means we have to build and grow in differrent ways. There are many routes to success, it's not a one way street. The roosters and storm dont get to draw on a deep development system, anymore than we can draw on Free Agency. Every club has to walk their own line and make do with what they have.

Some do it better than most, we have to walk our line... if you want compensation because we are located in canberra and think somehow we should be given artificial (rather than natural) advantages to prop us up.. good luck, ill redirect your mail to the grave. You'll find it before we get legs up for being an underiable location.

So yes, by all means, shoot the salary cap into sun today and by 2025, we dont exist. The "consistency of teams both at the top and bottom" is a really simple way of saying which teams are run well and which arent. Wanna guess were we've stood generally speaking?

The broncos were a consitent top team when they were well managed, and they have as many advantages as any in the league... once they were poorly managed and poorly coached, nothing could stop them from being the worst team in the league
the bulldogs have all the advantages of any sydney team... doenst matter, they havent had anyone who knows what they're doing in years, they stink
Penrith draw on the best nursary in the world for RL talent, and until they found proper management and coaching they did nothing.
Parra have the second best by virtue of local, and they cant figure it the **** out because of mismanagement and bad coaching
The roosters have the smallest junior distrcit of any club and were a laughing stock for years, suddenly with good coaching and good management, they're a juggernaut
Melbourne have absolutely nothing, the game is STILL, after all this success, after all these years, an after thought in an AFL dominated state, there is no real domestic competition to draw from.
The knights and Manly have prestine beaches, the Dragons and Sharks are sitting on amazing locations...
Souths are 3 minutes bus ride away from the roosters and were a barren wasteland of success until...

None of it matters,
The ONLY consistent theme for good teams is:
- Good management
- Good coaching

that's all you need. We had that too! And were some unlucky bounces of the ball and brain fart away from maybe a title. Evidently we probably lucked into that, but ultimately we are responsible for our own success or failure.

the salary cap is not our issue, it's the reason we've survived this long
We are our issue.
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
SELECT * FROM Previous_Post
EXEC quote_post
WHERE UserName = 'Aknalkfgnaa' OR 'Yeah Raiders' OR 'Billy B'
EXEC RAND(good_grief; cheak_notes; uh82cit;)

GO;
Billy Walker
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Re: 2022

Post by Billy Walker »

It’s interesting - I’m not convinced the NRL would be too concerned if the Broncos, Chooks and one or two other teams raffled the premiership every year with everyone else as cannon fodder. The AFL on the other hand has a draft system and cap extensions for new clubs all aimed at creating a very level playing field. Everyone will have different views on what works and what doesn’t, but not sure it’s healthy to have an constantly uneven comp. The two Sydney teams in the AFL have a slightly higher cap supposedly to account for higher Sydney living costs. In reality it’s so Sydney teams can attract players from traditional AFL states. The NRL might do well to extend the cap for Canberra and other clubs not considered to be destination locations for NRL players. That’s if an even playing field matters? I think as long as it’s selling TV time they don’t care.
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

Botman wrote: January 1, 2022, 9:31 pm The salary cap is the ONLY reason a club like ours has even a chance to compete, and maybe even exist.
Go and check european soccer and let me know how clubs with our market share go when a salary cap doesnt exist.

Reality check, pal. If the NRL was run without a salary cap, and it was just dog eat dog, they'd have sold our damn license to the highest bidder 10 years ago. Hard to be competitve when you're the Perth **** Reds. What the salary cap does is provide is a baseline level of parity... and sure, other factors like life style, climate, beaches what-have-you matter, but the simple reality is, the only thing really holding this club back is itself.

There is absolutely nothing stopping us from being an excellently managed roster with excellent coaching. Can we attract the highest level talent alive? NO. But that just means we have to build and grow in differrent ways. There are many routes to success, it's not a one way street. The roosters and storm dont get to draw on a deep development system, anymore than we can draw on Free Agency. Every club has to walk their own line and make do with what they have.

Some do it better than most, we have to walk our line... if you want compensation because we are located in canberra and think somehow we should be given artificial (rather than natural) advantages to prop us up.. good luck, ill redirect your mail to the grave. You'll find it before we get legs up for being an underiable location.

So yes, by all means, shoot the salary cap into sun today and by 2025, we dont exist. The "consistency of teams both at the top and bottom" is a really simple way of saying which teams are run well and which arent. Wanna guess were we've stood generally speaking?

The broncos were a consitent top team when they were well managed, and they have as many advantages as any in the league... once they were poorly managed and poorly coached, nothing could stop them from being the worst team in the league
the bulldogs have all the advantages of any sydney team... doenst matter, they havent had anyone who knows what they're doing in years, they stink
Penrith draw on the best nursary in the world for RL talent, and until they found proper management and coaching they did nothing.
Parra have the second best by virtue of local, and they cant figure it the **** out because of mismanagement and bad coaching
The roosters have the smallest junior distrcit of any club and were a laughing stock for years, suddenly with good coaching and good management, they're a juggernaut
Melbourne have absolutely nothing, the game is STILL, after all this success, after all these years, an after thought in an AFL dominated state, there is no real domestic competition to draw from.
The knights and Manly have prestine beaches, the Dragons and Sharks are sitting on amazing locations...
Souths are 3 minutes bus ride away from the roosters and were a barren wasteland of success until...

None of it matters,
The ONLY consistent theme for good teams is:
- Good management
- Good coaching

that's all you need. We had that too! And were some unlucky bounces of the ball and brain fart away from maybe a title. Evidently we probably lucked into that, but ultimately we are responsible for our own success or failure.

the salary cap is not our issue, it's the reason we've survived this long
We are our issue.
Wow that’s a very long unnecessary post showing how you missed my point entirely. You sound a bit defensive also - you are not Nick Politis by any chance?

I don’t remember ever claiming in my post to get rid of the salary cap entirely or in particular having no system/free for all like European soccer, so what you are presenting is a false dichotomy and putting words in my mouth.

What I did simply say is that the current system wasn’t particularly effective in its current format for a few reasons in particular, which I think are fairly obvious. For example, is the salary cap transparent? Has the NRL uncovered systematic rorting itself or has it relied on fortunate happenstance? Does it take into consideration factors like location, lifestyle? For example, what happens when you want to put in another team, which RL needs to do (Perth or NZ et al) as they will be extremely disadvantaged in the player market in the beginning? I think these are quite legitimate questions and questions only designed to improve the system, because let’s face it compared to other sports, our transfer system is dreadful.

Now you could fix the salary cap itself or you could put in something like a draft/points system/anything else to work alongside the salary cap to counteract any inherent flaws in that system. It’s pretty much what every other professional sport has done (barring football) and something which, if we want to develop and grow the game further, needs to be looked at.
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

Billy Walker wrote: January 1, 2022, 10:48 pm It’s interesting - I’m not convinced the NRL would be too concerned if the Broncos, Chooks and one or two other teams raffled the premiership every year with everyone else as cannon fodder. The AFL on the other hand has a draft system and cap extensions for new clubs all aimed at creating a very level playing field. Everyone will have different views on what works and what doesn’t, but not sure it’s healthy to have an constantly uneven comp. The two Sydney teams in the AFL have a slightly higher cap supposedly to account for higher Sydney living costs. In reality it’s so Sydney teams can attract players from traditional AFL states. The NRL might do well to extend the cap for Canberra and other clubs not considered to be destination locations for NRL players. That’s if an even playing field matters? I think as long as it’s selling TV time they don’t care.
Exactly. If you can’t see that the current system has flaws then you are probably refusing the truth because it might hurt your beliefs. The Roosters and the Storm are very professional organisations, for sure, but in a competition which has had at least presented the pretence of an even competition, the fact that those clubs have been in what 15 of so grand finals over the past 20 years is either a freak occurrence, not replicated in any other such competition; or more correctly, shows that the salary cap is not working or can’t work in isolation.

Whether the ARLC actually cares about this ... probably not. At least until such time as everybody loses interest. I have to admit that I am personally,
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gangrenous
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Re: 2022

Post by gangrenous »

Third Party Agreements.
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Re: 2022

Post by Billy Walker »

gangrenous wrote: January 2, 2022, 8:09 am Third Party Agreements.
Tricky one - I’m not opposed to a genuine star who is getting close to being bigger than the game earning what he is worth. I am opposed to some half bit player receiving over the top payment for some minor promotion of a used car yard as a front to beating the salary cap. How you allow the former without enabling the later I don’t know.
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

Billy Walker wrote: January 2, 2022, 8:24 am
gangrenous wrote: January 2, 2022, 8:09 am Third Party Agreements.
Tricky one - I’m not opposed to a genuine star who is getting close to being bigger than the game earning what he is worth. I am opposed to some half bit player receiving over the top payment for some minor promotion of a used car yard as a front to beating the salary cap. How you allow the former without enabling the later I don’t know.
That’s why you should have something additional to the salary cap, that is not monetary based, to counteract that. You can tighten this if you want but as soon as you introduced it the genie was let out of the bottle.
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Matt
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Re: 2022

Post by Matt »

Colk wrote: January 1, 2022, 11:22 pm
Botman wrote: January 1, 2022, 9:31 pm The salary cap is the ONLY reason a club like ours has even a chance to compete, and maybe even exist.
Go and check european soccer and let me know how clubs with our market share go when a salary cap doesnt exist.

Reality check, pal. If the NRL was run without a salary cap, and it was just dog eat dog, they'd have sold our damn license to the highest bidder 10 years ago. Hard to be competitve when you're the Perth **** Reds. What the salary cap does is provide is a baseline level of parity... and sure, other factors like life style, climate, beaches what-have-you matter, but the simple reality is, the only thing really holding this club back is itself.

There is absolutely nothing stopping us from being an excellently managed roster with excellent coaching. Can we attract the highest level talent alive? NO. But that just means we have to build and grow in differrent ways. There are many routes to success, it's not a one way street. The roosters and storm dont get to draw on a deep development system, anymore than we can draw on Free Agency. Every club has to walk their own line and make do with what they have.

Some do it better than most, we have to walk our line... if you want compensation because we are located in canberra and think somehow we should be given artificial (rather than natural) advantages to prop us up.. good luck, ill redirect your mail to the grave. You'll find it before we get legs up for being an underiable location.

So yes, by all means, shoot the salary cap into sun today and by 2025, we dont exist. The "consistency of teams both at the top and bottom" is a really simple way of saying which teams are run well and which arent. Wanna guess were we've stood generally speaking?

The broncos were a consitent top team when they were well managed, and they have as many advantages as any in the league... once they were poorly managed and poorly coached, nothing could stop them from being the worst team in the league
the bulldogs have all the advantages of any sydney team... doenst matter, they havent had anyone who knows what they're doing in years, they stink
Penrith draw on the best nursary in the world for RL talent, and until they found proper management and coaching they did nothing.
Parra have the second best by virtue of local, and they cant figure it the **** out because of mismanagement and bad coaching
The roosters have the smallest junior distrcit of any club and were a laughing stock for years, suddenly with good coaching and good management, they're a juggernaut
Melbourne have absolutely nothing, the game is STILL, after all this success, after all these years, an after thought in an AFL dominated state, there is no real domestic competition to draw from.
The knights and Manly have prestine beaches, the Dragons and Sharks are sitting on amazing locations...
Souths are 3 minutes bus ride away from the roosters and were a barren wasteland of success until...

None of it matters,
The ONLY consistent theme for good teams is:
- Good management
- Good coaching

that's all you need. We had that too! And were some unlucky bounces of the ball and brain fart away from maybe a title. Evidently we probably lucked into that, but ultimately we are responsible for our own success or failure.

the salary cap is not our issue, it's the reason we've survived this long
We are our issue.
Wow that’s a very long unnecessary post showing how you missed my point entirely. You sound a bit defensive also - you are not Nick Politis by any chance?

I don’t remember ever claiming in my post to get rid of the salary cap entirely or in particular having no system/free for all like European soccer, so what you are presenting is a false dichotomy and putting words in my mouth.

What I did simply say is that the current system wasn’t particularly effective in its current format for a few reasons in particular, which I think are fairly obvious. For example, is the salary cap transparent? Has the NRL uncovered systematic rorting itself or has it relied on fortunate happenstance? Does it take into consideration factors like location, lifestyle? For example, what happens when you want to put in another team, which RL needs to do (Perth or NZ et al) as they will be extremely disadvantaged in the player market in the beginning? I think these are quite legitimate questions and questions only designed to improve the system, because let’s face it compared to other sports, our transfer system is dreadful.

Now you could fix the salary cap itself or you could put in something like a draft/points system/anything else to work alongside the salary cap to counteract any inherent flaws in that system. It’s pretty much what every other professional sport has done (barring football) and something which, if we want to develop and grow the game further, needs to be looked at.
Colk, the only point you made that was valid, was the lack if transparency in the cap. But you took a while to get there.

Botman has replied it kind.

It's like for like really
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gangrenous
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2022

Post by gangrenous »

What about rorting only being uncovered by whistleblowers? That’s another fair point regarding enforcement of the framework.

A lot of Botman’s post is built around a straw man that Colk called for removal of the system.

Think you’re hardly being an impartial judge of equivalence there Matt…
Last edited by gangrenous on January 2, 2022, 10:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

Matt wrote: January 2, 2022, 9:51 am
Colk wrote: January 1, 2022, 11:22 pm
Botman wrote: January 1, 2022, 9:31 pm The salary cap is the ONLY reason a club like ours has even a chance to compete, and maybe even exist.
Go and check european soccer and let me know how clubs with our market share go when a salary cap doesnt exist.

Reality check, pal. If the NRL was run without a salary cap, and it was just dog eat dog, they'd have sold our damn license to the highest bidder 10 years ago. Hard to be competitve when you're the Perth **** Reds. What the salary cap does is provide is a baseline level of parity... and sure, other factors like life style, climate, beaches what-have-you matter, but the simple reality is, the only thing really holding this club back is itself.

There is absolutely nothing stopping us from being an excellently managed roster with excellent coaching. Can we attract the highest level talent alive? NO. But that just means we have to build and grow in differrent ways. There are many routes to success, it's not a one way street. The roosters and storm dont get to draw on a deep development system, anymore than we can draw on Free Agency. Every club has to walk their own line and make do with what they have.

Some do it better than most, we have to walk our line... if you want compensation because we are located in canberra and think somehow we should be given artificial (rather than natural) advantages to prop us up.. good luck, ill redirect your mail to the grave. You'll find it before we get legs up for being an underiable location.

So yes, by all means, shoot the salary cap into sun today and by 2025, we dont exist. The "consistency of teams both at the top and bottom" is a really simple way of saying which teams are run well and which arent. Wanna guess were we've stood generally speaking?

The broncos were a consitent top team when they were well managed, and they have as many advantages as any in the league... once they were poorly managed and poorly coached, nothing could stop them from being the worst team in the league
the bulldogs have all the advantages of any sydney team... doenst matter, they havent had anyone who knows what they're doing in years, they stink
Penrith draw on the best nursary in the world for RL talent, and until they found proper management and coaching they did nothing.
Parra have the second best by virtue of local, and they cant figure it the **** out because of mismanagement and bad coaching
The roosters have the smallest junior distrcit of any club and were a laughing stock for years, suddenly with good coaching and good management, they're a juggernaut
Melbourne have absolutely nothing, the game is STILL, after all this success, after all these years, an after thought in an AFL dominated state, there is no real domestic competition to draw from.
The knights and Manly have prestine beaches, the Dragons and Sharks are sitting on amazing locations...
Souths are 3 minutes bus ride away from the roosters and were a barren wasteland of success until...

None of it matters,
The ONLY consistent theme for good teams is:
- Good management
- Good coaching

that's all you need. We had that too! And were some unlucky bounces of the ball and brain fart away from maybe a title. Evidently we probably lucked into that, but ultimately we are responsible for our own success or failure.

the salary cap is not our issue, it's the reason we've survived this long
We are our issue.
Wow that’s a very long unnecessary post showing how you missed my point entirely. You sound a bit defensive also - you are not Nick Politis by any chance?

I don’t remember ever claiming in my post to get rid of the salary cap entirely or in particular having no system/free for all like European soccer, so what you are presenting is a false dichotomy and putting words in my mouth.

What I did simply say is that the current system wasn’t particularly effective in its current format for a few reasons in particular, which I think are fairly obvious. For example, is the salary cap transparent? Has the NRL uncovered systematic rorting itself or has it relied on fortunate happenstance? Does it take into consideration factors like location, lifestyle? For example, what happens when you want to put in another team, which RL needs to do (Perth or NZ et al) as they will be extremely disadvantaged in the player market in the beginning? I think these are quite legitimate questions and questions only designed to improve the system, because let’s face it compared to other sports, our transfer system is dreadful.

Now you could fix the salary cap itself or you could put in something like a draft/points system/anything else to work alongside the salary cap to counteract any inherent flaws in that system. It’s pretty much what every other professional sport has done (barring football) and something which, if we want to develop and grow the game further, needs to be looked at.
Colk, the only point you made that was valid, was the lack if transparency in the cap. But you took a while to get there.

Botman has replied it kind.

It's like for like really
Really? He went on a completely non-sensical rant about blowing up the salary cap which I never once intimated.

Also, you don’t think for example that the Dolphins entry has identified a problem with the salary cap? You don’t think that every big name player going to Roosters/Souths for the past 10 or so years doesn’t suggest a flaw? Also, lack of transparency isn’t just a minor problem, it’s an existential one.
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Re: 2022

Post by greeneyed »

There are significant problems in the current salary cap arrangements in my view.

For a start, there are too many loopholes, and TPAs are a huge one. When you look at the detail of the TPA rules, you could drive a truck through them. There is little transparency on TPAs. The NRL was eventually forced to give aggregate figures by club… made all sorts of claims about how there was nothing to see… and then two years later it emerged they hadn’t told us about half the deals (in value eg those supplied by game wide partners, like the broadcasters)! They justified that on the grounds that the public wasn’t interested in the other half! Seriously, that’s what they said. The issue with TPAs is that the “big clubs” are those who are most advantaged. Guess which club reportedly had a disproportionate share of the TPAs they didn’t tell us about. The system exacerbates the big market teams’ advantages (which are reinforced by other inequities that result from NRL policies, like broadcasting). As I’ve previously written at length about, it would relatively easy to bring TPAs into the cap.

Enforcement is poor. Even when the evidence is dumped in the lap of the NRL. Broncos Leagues Club anyone?

The results are showing the cap isn’t equalising the competition. We’ve just seen the most unequal competition in history, but a few teams have been dominating for two decades. We ought to be having a close look at why.

From a code wide perspective, development is under rewarded and undermined by the rules. That’s another big problem.
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Re: 2022

Post by BadnMean »

greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 10:22 am There are significant problems in the current salary cap arrangements in my view.

For a start, there are too many loopholes, and TPAs are a huge one. When you look at the detail of the TPA rules, you could drive a truck through them. There is little transparency on TPAs. The NRL was eventually forced to give aggregate figures by club… made all sorts of claims about how there was nothing to see… and then two years later it emerged they hadn’t told us about half the deals (in value eg those supplied by game wide partners, like the broadcasters)! They justified that on the grounds that the public wasn’t interested in the other half! Seriously, that’s what they said. The issue with TPAs is that the “big clubs” are those who are most advantaged. Guess which club reportedly had a disproportionate share of the TPAs they didn’t tell us about. The system exacerbates the big market teams’ advantages (which are reinforced by other inequities that result from NRL policies, like broadcasting). As I’ve previously written at length about, it would relatively easy to bring TPAs into the cap.

Enforcement is poor. Even when the evidence is dumped in the lap of the NRL. Broncos Leagues Club anyone?

The results are showing the cap isn’t equalising the competition. We’ve just seen the most unequal competition in history, but a few teams have been dominating for two decades. We ought to be having a close look at why.

From a code wide perspective, development is under rewarded and undermined by the rules. That’s another big problem.
Well summarised and hear hear!
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Re: 2022

Post by Billy Walker »

BadnMean wrote: January 2, 2022, 10:36 am
greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 10:22 am There are significant problems in the current salary cap arrangements in my view.

For a start, there are too many loopholes, and TPAs are a huge one. When you look at the detail of the TPA rules, you could drive a truck through them. There is little transparency on TPAs. The NRL was eventually forced to give aggregate figures by club… made all sorts of claims about how there was nothing to see… and then two years later it emerged they hadn’t told us about half the deals (in value eg those supplied by game wide partners, like the broadcasters)! They justified that on the grounds that the public wasn’t interested in the other half! Seriously, that’s what they said. The issue with TPAs is that the “big clubs” are those who are most advantaged. Guess which club reportedly had a disproportionate share of the TPAs they didn’t tell us about. The system exacerbates the big market teams’ advantages (which are reinforced by other inequities that result from NRL policies, like broadcasting). As I’ve previously written at length about, it would relatively easy to bring TPAs into the cap.

Enforcement is poor. Even when the evidence is dumped in the lap of the NRL. Broncos Leagues Club anyone?

The results are showing the cap isn’t equalising the competition. We’ve just seen the most unequal competition in history, but a few teams have been dominating for two decades. We ought to be having a close look at why.

From a code wide perspective, development is under rewarded and undermined by the rules. That’s another big problem.
Well summarised and hear hear!
I suspect a lot of these issues will be somewhat resolved if they cut a good number of Sydney teams. Less teams better quality players spread around the more national comp.
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Re: 2022

Post by Matt »

gangrenous wrote: January 2, 2022, 10:04 am What about rorting only being uncovered by whistleblowers? That’s another fair point regarding enforcement of the framework.

A lot of Botman’s post is built around a straw man that Colk called for removal of the system.

Think you’re hardly being an impartial judge of equivalence there Matt…
Sorry Colk, Gangers is correct, I missed the whistleblowers
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Re: 2022

Post by Matt »

Colk wrote: January 2, 2022, 10:05 am
Matt wrote: January 2, 2022, 9:51 am
Colk wrote: January 1, 2022, 11:22 pm
Botman wrote: January 1, 2022, 9:31 pm The salary cap is the ONLY reason a club like ours has even a chance to compete, and maybe even exist.
Go and check european soccer and let me know how clubs with our market share go when a salary cap doesnt exist.

Reality check, pal. If the NRL was run without a salary cap, and it was just dog eat dog, they'd have sold our damn license to the highest bidder 10 years ago. Hard to be competitve when you're the Perth **** Reds. What the salary cap does is provide is a baseline level of parity... and sure, other factors like life style, climate, beaches what-have-you matter, but the simple reality is, the only thing really holding this club back is itself.

There is absolutely nothing stopping us from being an excellently managed roster with excellent coaching. Can we attract the highest level talent alive? NO. But that just means we have to build and grow in differrent ways. There are many routes to success, it's not a one way street. The roosters and storm dont get to draw on a deep development system, anymore than we can draw on Free Agency. Every club has to walk their own line and make do with what they have.

Some do it better than most, we have to walk our line... if you want compensation because we are located in canberra and think somehow we should be given artificial (rather than natural) advantages to prop us up.. good luck, ill redirect your mail to the grave. You'll find it before we get legs up for being an underiable location.

So yes, by all means, shoot the salary cap into sun today and by 2025, we dont exist. The "consistency of teams both at the top and bottom" is a really simple way of saying which teams are run well and which arent. Wanna guess were we've stood generally speaking?

The broncos were a consitent top team when they were well managed, and they have as many advantages as any in the league... once they were poorly managed and poorly coached, nothing could stop them from being the worst team in the league
the bulldogs have all the advantages of any sydney team... doenst matter, they havent had anyone who knows what they're doing in years, they stink
Penrith draw on the best nursary in the world for RL talent, and until they found proper management and coaching they did nothing.
Parra have the second best by virtue of local, and they cant figure it the **** out because of mismanagement and bad coaching
The roosters have the smallest junior distrcit of any club and were a laughing stock for years, suddenly with good coaching and good management, they're a juggernaut
Melbourne have absolutely nothing, the game is STILL, after all this success, after all these years, an after thought in an AFL dominated state, there is no real domestic competition to draw from.
The knights and Manly have prestine beaches, the Dragons and Sharks are sitting on amazing locations...
Souths are 3 minutes bus ride away from the roosters and were a barren wasteland of success until...

None of it matters,
The ONLY consistent theme for good teams is:
- Good management
- Good coaching

that's all you need. We had that too! And were some unlucky bounces of the ball and brain fart away from maybe a title. Evidently we probably lucked into that, but ultimately we are responsible for our own success or failure.

the salary cap is not our issue, it's the reason we've survived this long
We are our issue.
Wow that’s a very long unnecessary post showing how you missed my point entirely. You sound a bit defensive also - you are not Nick Politis by any chance?

I don’t remember ever claiming in my post to get rid of the salary cap entirely or in particular having no system/free for all like European soccer, so what you are presenting is a false dichotomy and putting words in my mouth.

What I did simply say is that the current system wasn’t particularly effective in its current format for a few reasons in particular, which I think are fairly obvious. For example, is the salary cap transparent? Has the NRL uncovered systematic rorting itself or has it relied on fortunate happenstance? Does it take into consideration factors like location, lifestyle? For example, what happens when you want to put in another team, which RL needs to do (Perth or NZ et al) as they will be extremely disadvantaged in the player market in the beginning? I think these are quite legitimate questions and questions only designed to improve the system, because let’s face it compared to other sports, our transfer system is dreadful.

Now you could fix the salary cap itself or you could put in something like a draft/points system/anything else to work alongside the salary cap to counteract any inherent flaws in that system. It’s pretty much what every other professional sport has done (barring football) and something which, if we want to develop and grow the game further, needs to be looked at.
Colk, the only point you made that was valid, was the lack if transparency in the cap. But you took a while to get there.

Botman has replied it kind.

It's like for like really
Really? He went on a completely non-sensical rant about blowing up the salary cap which I never once intimated.

Also, you don’t think for example that the Dolphins entry has identified a problem with the salary cap? You don’t think that every big name player going to Roosters/Souths for the past 10 or so years doesn’t suggest a flaw? Also, lack of transparency isn’t just a minor problem, it’s an existential one.
I dont believe the Dolphins are worse off, no. That said, it would be unlikely for the to be competitive in yr 1. Storm is the only franchise to really buck the trend as far as new clubs go.

1. Cap is equal
2. With contracts in the NRL being meaningless, they have more than just the off contract players to pick from.
3. There are players that will see inaugural side as attractive
4. It's a nice spot/destination much like the GC.
5. Bennett is the coach, he will attract players
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Re: 2022

Post by Matt »

BadnMean wrote: January 2, 2022, 10:36 am
greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 10:22 am There are significant problems in the current salary cap arrangements in my view.

For a start, there are too many loopholes, and TPAs are a huge one. When you look at the detail of the TPA rules, you could drive a truck through them. There is little transparency on TPAs. The NRL was eventually forced to give aggregate figures by club… made all sorts of claims about how there was nothing to see… and then two years later it emerged they hadn’t told us about half the deals (in value eg those supplied by game wide partners, like the broadcasters)! They justified that on the grounds that the public wasn’t interested in the other half! Seriously, that’s what they said. The issue with TPAs is that the “big clubs” are those who are most advantaged. Guess which club reportedly had a disproportionate share of the TPAs they didn’t tell us about. The system exacerbates the big market teams’ advantages (which are reinforced by other inequities that result from NRL policies, like broadcasting). As I’ve previously written at length about, it would relatively easy to bring TPAs into the cap.

Enforcement is poor. Even when the evidence is dumped in the lap of the NRL. Broncos Leagues Club anyone?

The results are showing the cap isn’t equalising the competition. We’ve just seen the most unequal competition in history, but a few teams have been dominating for two decades. We ought to be having a close look at why.

From a code wide perspective, development is under rewarded and undermined by the rules. That’s another big problem.
Well summarised and hear hear!
Agreed.

However, the ONLY, solution is to make salaries publicly available - TPA incl. Which would be near impossible with privacy laws here.

I'd argue, that even if clubs had to list the figures without names attached you'd be better off (Though, people would be able to join most of the dots).
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Re: 2022

Post by greeneyed »

Matt wrote: January 2, 2022, 12:28 pm 4. It's a nice spot/destination much like the GC.
Ever been to Redcliffe, Matt?
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Re: 2022

Post by Botman »

I’m just tired of our fans blaming the nrl and the salary cap and every thing else under the sun for the clubs performance other than itself

The salary cap in the nrl isn’t perfect in achieving perfect parity. No salary cap system is. Because salary caps can’t and frankly aren’t even designed to actually deliver pairty or level the playing field against natural advantages/disadvantage such as location and bad management/poor coaching, which have been far and away the biggest disadvantage this club has had.

What the salary cap does and is designed to do is ensure that any club has the ability to be successful.
It doesnt guarantee every club will have their moment, it doesnt aim to ensure every club gets highs and lows, it doesnt aim to make sure clubs in undesirable locations get legs up over clubs in deseriable ones, it doesnt give legs up to poorly run clubs at the expense of well run clubs, it simply ensures the rich clubs can't outspend the poor clubs for talent like european soccers and ensures every club has a chance to suceed or fail on their own merits.

As for its effectiveness? The results in the last 20 years:
Image
Save for basically 2 outliers:

the storm who are an expansion side in the middle of a AFL dominated state with no junior development to build, and who have worked incredibly hard to establish a foothole in VIC and are now riding a wave of unprecedented domiance on the back of the incredibly great scouting, talent identification and development and lead by the best coach of time

the roosters who are the only team that are in the same stratasphere as the storm for the professionalism they run their club with, who's advantages are no better or worse than the Eels, Manly, Rabbitohs, Dragons but whose results are substancially better

Other than those two, it's about as good as you could hope for given the variables of coaching, management etc that go into pro sports. The top 8 figures in particular speak extremely highly to how effective it's been, again baring some outliers, all of which would be in contention for the worst run clubs in the competition over this period, fans can pretty much bank on the fact they'll see their team playing finals footy every other year

*note, those are back hand numbers, quickly thrown together from RLP... there might an error or two amongst it since i didnt bother double checking most of it, but the point is pretty clear
Last edited by Botman on January 2, 2022, 12:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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EXEC RAND(good_grief; cheak_notes; uh82cit;)

GO;
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Re: 2022

Post by Billy Walker »

Botman wrote: January 2, 2022, 12:50 pm I’m just tired of our fans blaming the nrl and the salary cap and every thing else under the sun for the clubs performance other than itself

The salary cap in the nrl isn’t perfect in achieving perfect parity. No salary cap system is. Because salary caps can’t and frankly aren’t even designed to actually deliver pairty or level the playing field against natural advantages/disadvantage such as location and bad management/poor coaching, which have been far and away the biggest disadvantage this club has had.

What the salary cap does and is designed to do is ensure that any club has the ability to be success.
It doesnt guarantee every club will have their moment, it doesnt aim to ensure every club gets highs and lows, it doesnt aim to make sure clubs in undesirable locations get legs up over clubs in deseriable ones, it doesnt give legs up to poorly run clubs at the expense of well run clubs, it simply ensures the rich clubs can't outspend the poor clubs for talent like european soccers and ensures every club has a chance to success on their own merits.

As for its effectiveness? The results in the last 20 years:
Image
Save for basically 2 outliers:

the storm who are an expansion side in the middle of a AFL dominated state with no junior development to build, and who have worked incredibly hard to establish a foothole in VIC and are now riding a wave of unprecedented domiance on the back of the incredibly great scouting, talent identification and development and lead by the best coach of time

the roosters who are the only team that are in the same stratasphere as the storm for the professionalism they run their club with, who's advantages are no better or worse than the Eels, Manly, Rabbitohs, Dragons but whose results are substancially better

Other than those two, it's about as good as you could hope for given the variables of coaching, management etc that go into pro sports.
You make some fair points there Bot.
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Re: 2022

Post by Botman »

The salary cap very effectively does what it aims to do, and contributes substancially to parity across the NRL
Is there more the NRL could do in terms of parity? Of course, once the NRL goes to 18 and probably eventually 20 teams, you'll find no bigger advocate for conferencing the NRL than me, no fan in the world is more eager than me to see the NRL establish a proper pathway from state U16-18's competitions into a NRL draft to help with this.

I've been screaming into the wind for years about publishing player salaries and contract details, including TPA's...

But the simple reality is the Storm and Roosters aren't dominating because they have unbelievable advantages with a salary cap. They're dominating because they're extremely well run and well coached.
As were the Broncos, who i was told were only able to be successful because of all these wonderful advantages they had... and now even with all those advantages that made it so easy for them, they're just like any other poorly run **** hole club because the front office and coaching has fallen off a cliff. Imagine my surprise. And hot tip, the Storm and Roosters are going to go the same way should they ever find themselves back in a situation where they have poor management and coaching.

We have some natural disadvantages, things we need to overcome as a club in terms of the player market, the salary cap helps ensure these disadvantages arent a death sentence to our ability to compete and be successful. There is nothing stopping us from being well run and well coached and being a successful football team. The salary cap, although not perfect, plays a large role in ensure we can suceed or fail on our own merits. Unfortunately for us fans, we've done more of the latter than the former
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
SELECT * FROM Previous_Post
EXEC quote_post
WHERE UserName = 'Aknalkfgnaa' OR 'Yeah Raiders' OR 'Billy B'
EXEC RAND(good_grief; cheak_notes; uh82cit;)

GO;
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Re: 2022

Post by Finchy »

Off topic, but that table Bot posted is interesting. Pretty ordinary viewing for Wests Tigers. I didn’t realise that they have only made the finals 3 times in their 22 seasons, and made top 4 for all of them. They’ve never finished between 5th-8th. And despite their lack of finals appearances or lack of success in general, they’ve never finished last.

The Storm wooden spoon is definitely an outlier because they got stripped of points for salary cap rorting, not because they underperformed.

I completely forgot about the Roosters ever winning the spoon in the NRL era. Coached by Brad Fittler. I doubt we’ll ever see that happen again.
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Re: 2022

Post by greeneyed »

Maybe it's not all one thing or the other. I can't see anything wrong with Raiders fans wanting the NRL to treat their club fairly and equitably - and to pressure the NRL to eliminate policies that unreasonably disadvantage the club or favour others. Those Raiders fans can also want the club to be professionally run and coached.
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Re: 2022

Post by Billy Walker »

Botman wrote: January 2, 2022, 1:07 pm The salary cap very effectively does what it aims to do, and contributes substancially to parity across the NRL
Is there more the NRL could do in terms of parity? Of course, once the NRL goes to 18 and probably eventually 20 teams, you'll find no bigger advocate for conferencing the NRL than me, no fan in the world is more eager than me to see the NRL establish a proper pathway from state U16-18's competitions into a NRL draft to help with this.

I've been screaming into the wind for years about publishing player salaries and contract details, including TPA's...

But the simple reality is the Storm and Roosters aren't dominating because they have unbelievable advantages with a salary cap. They're dominating because they're extremely well run and well coached.
As were the Broncos, who i was told were only able to be successful because of all these wonderful advantages they had... and now even with all those advantages that made it so easy for them, they're just like any other poorly run **** hole club because the front office and coaching has fallen off a cliff. Imagine my surprise. And hot tip, the Storm and Roosters are going to go the same way should they ever find themselves back in a situation where they have poor management and coaching.

We have some natural disadvantages, things we need to overcome as a club in terms of the player market, the salary cap helps ensure these disadvantages arent a death sentence to our ability to compete and be successful. There is nothing stopping us from being well run and well coached and being a successful football team. The salary cap, although not perfect, plays a large role in ensure we can suceed or fail on our own merits. Unfortunately for us fans, we've done more of the latter than the former
I agree with you Bot. The bit that annoys me though is the acceptance of under performance. I’ll bet my hard earned that the Broncos won’t remain a steaming pile for long. The fan base, the club, the town - it just won’t accept an underperforming Broncos and they will do what needs to be done to get the club up top again even if some players and coaches get burned along the way.

It’s been far too long since we have had success, but sometimes it’s hard not to get a sense that we are cool with that. With the exception of poor Semi, none of our players seem to be fair game for any critical analysis and I think we are fairly kind and accepting of how the club is run.

We really have a bad habit of glorifying some players who would struggle to get a gig elsewhere.
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Re: 2022

Post by Botman »

greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 1:38 pm Maybe it's not all one thing or the other. I can't see anything wrong with Raiders fans wanting the NRL to treat their club fairly and equitably - and to pressure the NRL to eliminate policies that unreasonably disadvantage the club or favour others. Those Raiders fans can also want the club to be professionally run and coached.
Completely agree
It is my view that whilst not perfect, the nrl by and large has done a very good job in treating clubs, including our own, equitably and has provided a competition with a structure and rules that allows a club like ours the ability to compete and be as successful as any other.

The rest is up to us.
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
SELECT * FROM Previous_Post
EXEC quote_post
WHERE UserName = 'Aknalkfgnaa' OR 'Yeah Raiders' OR 'Billy B'
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GO;
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Re: 2022

Post by Botman »

Finchy wrote: January 2, 2022, 1:17 pm Off topic, but that table Bot posted is interesting. Pretty ordinary viewing for Wests Tigers. I didn’t realise that they have only made the finals 3 times in their 22 seasons, and made top 4 for all of them. They’ve never finished between 5th-8th. And despite their lack of finals appearances or lack of success in general, they’ve never finished last.

The Storm wooden spoon is definitely an outlier because they got stripped of points for salary cap rorting, not because they underperformed.

I completely forgot about the Roosters ever winning the spoon in the NRL era. Coached by Brad Fittler. I doubt we’ll ever see that happen again.
It more or less showed exactly what I expected it too, but it was a really interesting to see to what degree it hardened my views

The two outlier clubs in terms of success are in entirely different circumstances, but would easily be considered the two most most ruthless and professional organisations in the league. Both have very stable and extremely good management, both have excellent HC’s

The outlier bad teams also in entirely different circumstances, they’ve both got so called “advantages” that we’d kill to have… and they’d be the two sides firmly in contention for the worst run teams in the league. They’ve bounced from one new era to the next and getting it wrong off and on the field. Being near a beach or being in Sydney doesn’t count for much if you can’t manage your roster and have terrible coaching

Conversely, with good coaching and good management you can be the most dominant football team in the competition despite having no juniors, limited real fan base, no beaches near by, in a city with pretty ordinary climate and where 90% of the city couldn’t give a **** about your club or it’s players
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
SELECT * FROM Previous_Post
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GO;
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Re: 2022

Post by greeneyed »

Botman wrote: January 2, 2022, 2:12 pm
greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 1:38 pm Maybe it's not all one thing or the other. I can't see anything wrong with Raiders fans wanting the NRL to treat their club fairly and equitably - and to pressure the NRL to eliminate policies that unreasonably disadvantage the club or favour others. Those Raiders fans can also want the club to be professionally run and coached.
Completely agree
It is my view that whilst not perfect, the nrl by and large has done a very good job in treating clubs, including our own, equitably and has provided a competition with a structure and rules that allows a club like ours the ability to compete and be as successful as any other.

The rest is up to us.
I have a very different view on the NRL's performance. There is a lot of room for improvement in the salary cap rules and other policies, but I won't go over the detail again.

It's a bit like the debate over officiating. There seem to be some posters who want to prohibit any fan criticism of the offiicals and decisions. I can see why the club should do that. The decisions of officials are outside their control and it is detrimental to player and team performance if they are used as an excuse. The club and coach have done a lot better on that score in recent years.

But the officials should be subject to the same accountability that we expect of the club, coaches and players for their performances (there is certainly plenty of the latter here and elsewhere). The NRL's refereeing department and the judiciary system are very poorly performed in my view. Inconsistencies are rife. And if there are major errors or systemic problems, it is quite reasonable for the fans to point them out, and expect some accountability, in my view.

We should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 1:38 pm Maybe it's not all one thing or the other. I can't see anything wrong with Raiders fans wanting the NRL to treat their club fairly and equitably - and to pressure the NRL to eliminate policies that unreasonably disadvantage the club or favour others. Those Raiders fans can also want the club to be professionally run and coached.
Exactly. It is just being realistic. You can criticise the club for poor decisions whilst also realising that they are disadvantaged in a lot of ways. They are not mutually exclusive propositions.

Essentially it is a lot harder for the Raiders, Warriors, Knights and Cowboys to achieve success - the clubs either have to bank on building a side completely from their own region (which is rare) or recruit players that other clubs (which is also very rare)
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

Meant to say that other clubs don’t want
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

Botman wrote: January 2, 2022, 2:12 pm
greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 1:38 pm Maybe it's not all one thing or the other. I can't see anything wrong with Raiders fans wanting the NRL to treat their club fairly and equitably - and to pressure the NRL to eliminate policies that unreasonably disadvantage the club or favour others. Those Raiders fans can also want the club to be professionally run and coached.
Completely agree
It is my view that whilst not perfect, the nrl by and large has done a very good job in treating clubs, including our own, equitably and has provided a competition with a structure and rules that allows a club like ours the ability to compete and be as successful as any other.

The rest is up to us.
I think it is a little simplistic to say that it is the best system that they can use. No other competition with the subject of parity at hand, uses just one mechanism, particularly if that mechanism has many faults. They generally use a draft in association with it
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Re: 2022

Post by Matt »

greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 12:44 pm
Matt wrote: January 2, 2022, 12:28 pm 4. It's a nice spot/destination much like the GC.
Ever been to Redcliffe, Matt?
Yup.
It's not the strip, but weather, beach, access to all the essentials. Im sure it will be a draw card
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Re: 2022

Post by greeneyed »

Matt wrote: January 2, 2022, 3:16 pm
greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 12:44 pm
Matt wrote: January 2, 2022, 12:28 pm 4. It's a nice spot/destination much like the GC.
Ever been to Redcliffe, Matt?
Yup.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: 2022

Post by Matt »

greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 3:20 pm
Matt wrote: January 2, 2022, 3:16 pm
greeneyed wrote: January 2, 2022, 12:44 pm
Matt wrote: January 2, 2022, 12:28 pm 4. It's a nice spot/destination much like the GC.
Ever been to Redcliffe, Matt?
Yup.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
^^^
I edited my post above.
I'd say most players will live in Brisbane, so, it's not gonna be an issue
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Re: 2022

Post by Colk »

Billy Walker wrote: January 2, 2022, 2:10 pm
Botman wrote: January 2, 2022, 1:07 pm The salary cap very effectively does what it aims to do, and contributes substancially to parity across the NRL
Is there more the NRL could do in terms of parity? Of course, once the NRL goes to 18 and probably eventually 20 teams, you'll find no bigger advocate for conferencing the NRL than me, no fan in the world is more eager than me to see the NRL establish a proper pathway from state U16-18's competitions into a NRL draft to help with this.

I've been screaming into the wind for years about publishing player salaries and contract details, including TPA's...

But the simple reality is the Storm and Roosters aren't dominating because they have unbelievable advantages with a salary cap. They're dominating because they're extremely well run and well coached.
As were the Broncos, who i was told were only able to be successful because of all these wonderful advantages they had... and now even with all those advantages that made it so easy for them, they're just like any other poorly run **** hole club because the front office and coaching has fallen off a cliff. Imagine my surprise. And hot tip, the Storm and Roosters are going to go the same way should they ever find themselves back in a situation where they have poor management and coaching.

We have some natural disadvantages, things we need to overcome as a club in terms of the player market, the salary cap helps ensure these disadvantages arent a death sentence to our ability to compete and be successful. There is nothing stopping us from being well run and well coached and being a successful football team. The salary cap, although not perfect, plays a large role in ensure we can suceed or fail on our own merits. Unfortunately for us fans, we've done more of the latter than the former
I agree with you Bot. The bit that annoys me though is the acceptance of under performance. I’ll bet my hard earned that the Broncos won’t remain a steaming pile for long. The fan base, the club, the town - it just won’t accept an underperforming Broncos and they will do what needs to be done to get the club up top again even if some players and coaches get burned along the way.

It’s been far too long since we have had success, but sometimes it’s hard not to get a sense that we are cool with that. With the exception of poor Semi, none of our players seem to be fair game for any critical analysis and I think we are fairly kind and accepting of how the club is run.

We really have a bad habit of glorifying some players who would struggle to get a gig elsewhere.
A large part of what you are saying is due to the depth of talent in the competition. That’s due to the terrible state of junior development.

Some of our players probably wouldn’t get a gig at certain clubs, particularly at the top clubs, but clubs like us have to take punts on our own developed players or outcasts from other clubs. We are not going to buy our way out of trouble.
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