Well just get Ricky to teach him how to play halfback....and run faster to cover the holes in the defensive line...
I mean he's a spring chicken....only 32, he has a lot of athletic development left in him according to Botman....
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Well just get Ricky to teach him how to play halfback....and run faster to cover the holes in the defensive line...
It might surprise you to learn that thinking quickly on your feet, or kicking the ball far has a lot more go into it than genetics.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 4:14 pm
Proof reading your own posts isn't working for you....go back and take a look....you change your mind the moment the mob gathers
And no...the antiquated belief that a first grade coach can develop a player is ..well...antiquated.
First grade coaches teach their teams the systems they want implemented to win football games. It's why we "crash ball" while other teams "block play"....etc
You might be surprised to learn this, but your genetics will determine whether you will "run fast" or "think quickly on your feet"...or have a big kick in your kitbag....these are not taught. They either unlock with expereince or you never have them in the first place.
But please, do tell me why Ricky never bothered to teach Sezer how to throw a cut out pass....or Jack for that matter....
By your logic, Ricky (who was great at throwing cut out passes) should be spending an hour or two with Jack teaching him how to throw them?
Or perhaps an hour teaching Jack not to kick the ball out on the full???
Your hilarious...
Garbage.Botman wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 4:45 pmIt might surprise you to learn that thinking quickly on your feet, or kicking the ball far has a lot more go into it than genetics.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 4:14 pm
Proof reading your own posts isn't working for you....go back and take a look....you change your mind the moment the mob gathers
And no...the antiquated belief that a first grade coach can develop a player is ..well...antiquated.
First grade coaches teach their teams the systems they want implemented to win football games. It's why we "crash ball" while other teams "block play"....etc
You might be surprised to learn this, but your genetics will determine whether you will "run fast" or "think quickly on your feet"...or have a big kick in your kitbag....these are not taught. They either unlock with expereince or you never have them in the first place.
But please, do tell me why Ricky never bothered to teach Sezer how to throw a cut out pass....or Jack for that matter....
By your logic, Ricky (who was great at throwing cut out passes) should be spending an hour or two with Jack teaching him how to throw them?
Or perhaps an hour teaching Jack not to kick the ball out on the full???
Your hilarious...
Thinking on your feet fast involves a deep understanding of the game, game situation, you're not born with that. That deep understand of the game is learned, and continues to be refined and developed throughout your entire career, even well into a FG career.
And that development can be dramatically enhanced by coaching. Coaches who understand the game at that highest level and can effectively teach it to their players generally have players who "think on their feet" better. They develop that with video sessions, they run game scenarios in training, they practise repetition to refine technique, skills and decision making for game situations. Like teachers, like electricians, like doctors, like lawyers... some are better and more effective at their job than others, and thus get better results
To kick a ball high or long, you need the leg sure. But to maximise your height, or length, or kick long/high and accurately, you need technique. Which is taught and developed at a FG level. How to stand to get optimum power through your motion, where to position yourself to maximise time and limit pressure from defenders, how to hold the football and where to kick the football, if you're trying to a ball to pull up, or to get that torpedo effect.
The fundamental athletic traits that allow you to play sport at a high level are not taught, however the refinement of those traits, and developing techniques to maximise whatever athletic traits you have is arguably the definition of what the job of a coach is, at any level. Coaching, is fundamentally a job of taking a player with physical tools and helping him to develop and refine those tools to apply them in specific ways in their chosen sport.
As for why Stuart never bothered to teach x, y z... the answer is rather simple, development has never been a strong point of his coaching. There are coaches who excel at development, there are coaches who excel at man management, there are coaches who excel at tactics, there are coaches who excel at culture.
The best do them all, and do them all brilliant. Most, even at the top level are lacking at one or more of these areas. Stuart isn't a good developmental coach, i suspect he knows it too, hence his preference to rely on veterans where he can.
This brings back memories of when Tongue played half back. Boy those were the days.
No, but what coaches do is take players traits natural traits like intellegence, speed, power and size etc and help them develop their skills and technique, in an attempt to help them maximise their natural gifts. A naturally fast player, with specific training and development will maximise his natural gift, a naturally smart player can be easily taught the concepts of how they're trying to attack a team and why, and understand the goal and then apply that in game to other situations.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pm Garbage.
Stuart can’t coach what is or isn’t genetically predisposed.
You either have a smart player or a stupid player....no amount of going through a playbook changes that.
Just like no amount of sprint training is going to turn you into a speed demon...you might get faster, but your not breaking records.
I dont need to. I know why. The roosters have one of the best coaches in the game, their development system is second only to Bellemy. Robinson and his coaching staff have an impeccible record of taking very talented players and developing them to at first play very specific roles as they are introduced and then expand their roles and responsibilities. This is part of a development plan. Occasionally a talent so prodigious emerges on the scene and shows they can hang right away, it's pretty rare, particularly halves in the NRL, but when they do, as Sam Walker has, and you can fast track that development plan.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pm Ask yourself why Sam Walker looks so natural as a halfback after almost no time in first grade, but Jack Wighton still plays like a frog in the sock when it comes to ball playing.
GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmDon’t confuse what a first grade coach teaches compared to basic skills you learn when you’re in juniors...
GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmThe idea that Bellyache did anything other than teach the players how he wanted them to win matches is a myth. Same with Bennett.
Ask the players themselves, they’ll tell you the best coaches are “people manager’, they know how to manage the different collective personalities in a football team, both on and off the field...
If you don’t have the underlying genetics to be a speedster or a quick thinking play maker, you won’t be...sad but that’s how life works...
Just because you can do, doesnt mean you can teach. Teaching and development is a skill and ability all by itself. You yourself must have noticed in your school days there were good teachers and bad. Good teachers are engaging, they know their subject matter, they know how to engage their pupils and get people engaged. It's a skill... ****, you might even argue the good ones are born with it... and if you aint got it and you've done nothing to develop it, then you're not going to be effective in that role.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmOtherwise, Ricky Stuart would have presided over the longest list of “greatest ever” halfbacks over his coaching career (given his skill set) and clearly that’s not the case...
Define development for me and we can discuss.Postman Pat wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 7:49 pm It’s bloody bonkers to think players aren’t developed in FG, how can you even argue that?
Thanks for basically agreeing with me.Botman wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 8:09 pmNo, but what coaches do is take players traits natural traits like intellegence, speed, power and size etc and help them develop their skills and technique, in an attempt to help them maximise their natural gifts. A naturally fast player, with specific training and development will maximise his natural gift, a naturally smart player can be easily taught the concepts of how they're trying to attack a team and why, and understand the goal and then apply that in game to other situations.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pm Garbage.
Stuart can’t coach what is or isn’t genetically predisposed.
You either have a smart player or a stupid player....no amount of going through a playbook changes that.
Just like no amount of sprint training is going to turn you into a speed demon...you might get faster, but your not breaking records.
Conversely they can take a slow player, and with specific training and development help him get faster. Will he ever be a burner? no but he can improve. Likewise they can take dumb players and help them with their decision making. Bellemy has made a career on doing this.
They develop players to help them improve on their weaknesses and maximise their strengths
That is growth and improvement of a player. That's what it is. Every coach in the world aims to to do this, at any level. They work to help their players individually and their team as a whole grow and improve. Growth and improvement of a player is player development.
I dont need to. I know why. The roosters have one of the best coaches in the game, their development system is second only to Bellemy. Robinson and his coaching staff have an impeccible record of taking very talented players and developing them to at first play very specific roles as they are introduced and then expand their roles and responsibilities. This is part of a development plan. Occasionally a talent so prodigious emerges on the scene and shows they can hang right away, it's pretty rare, particularly halves in the NRL, but when they do, as Sam Walker has, and you can fast track that development plan.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pm Ask yourself why Sam Walker looks so natural as a halfback after almost no time in first grade, but Jack Wighton still plays like a frog in the sock when it comes to ball playing.
But Robinson has spoken openly about their process with Walker, their plan for him and not wanting to put too much on him before he's ready. He's talking about the development plan they have for him.
GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmDon’t confuse what a first grade coach teaches compared to basic skills you learn when you’re in juniors...
I am not remotely confused. There is entire industries like sports science, biometics in sports, dedicated to helping elite athletes refine their technique, improve training regimes, improved diet, improve sleeping habits, specific training drills that focus on muscle memory, and a WHOLE lot more, all in the name of developing elite athletes... and it never stops. Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps even athletes on that level, the greatest of all time... they had coaches, and teams of staff who's sole job was to analysis their performance, and find ways to help them continue to develop their skills and technique so they can continue to maximise their natural gifts.
GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmThe idea that Bellyache did anything other than teach the players how he wanted them to win matches is a myth. Same with Bennett.
Ask the players themselves, they’ll tell you the best coaches are “people manager’, they know how to manage the different collective personalities in a football team, both on and off the field...
If you don’t have the underlying genetics to be a speedster or a quick thinking play maker, you won’t be...sad but that’s how life works...
The fact you think athlete development is a myth once you reach a certain level of competetion is demonstratably false in every professional sporting competion around the world. It beggers belief that anyone who's actually watched any sport what so ever could actually think that.
You cant develop elite speed if you dont have it, but that's not what development is. If that's your idea of what you think development is, then no wonder you think its a myth, as you have absolutely no idea what it is.
Just because you can do, doesnt mean you can teach. Teaching and development is a skill and ability all by itself. You yourself must have noticed in your school days there were good teachers and bad. Good teachers are engaging, they know their subject matter, they know how to engage their pupils and get people engaged. It's a skill... ****, you might even argue the good ones are born with it... and if you aint got it and you've done nothing to develop it, then you're not going to be effective in that role.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmOtherwise, Ricky Stuart would have presided over the longest list of “greatest ever” halfbacks over his coaching career (given his skill set) and clearly that’s not the case...
Good post. It's the intangibles that set apart the top players. Ability to read a game can be taught to a degree. Majority comes back to the natural instincts of the individual. It's what set apart guys like Wally Lewis, Andrew Johns and more recently Cam Smith who played at a level well beyond their physical talents. For most it's the those that can continually improve are the ones that succeed. Improvement comes from many sources. Coaching is one of those.rayden83 wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 9:01 pm I think, to a point, greenmachine is correct, at least in respect to half backs. Take for instance Brodie Croft. Now you can invest all the time, training, sports science and advanced coaching methods in him, but at the end of the day he probably isn't going to cut it at NRL level. His ceiling isn't high enough. Half backs tend to establish themselves early on and peak later, however the ability to succeed at NRL level is usually apparent straight away. It's not necessarily the long range cut out balls and floaters, its often intangibles like vision, decision making, imagination etc that indicates whether that player has what it takes. The execution may be poor, but that's when the coaching, training etc helps to tighten those loose areas.
The reality is half back is such a specialised position that unless you're showing real promise by your late teens/early 20's you're probably not going to make it. Those skills probably are learnt/taught but they would be cultivated from an early age.
Thoughts and prayers to anyone who follows that code closely enough to answer this questionWiki Special wrote: ↑May 13, 2021, 7:25 pm Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
Amen to that Botman.Botman wrote: ↑May 13, 2021, 8:55 pmThoughts and prayers to anyone who follows that code closely enough to answer this questionWiki Special wrote: ↑May 13, 2021, 7:25 pm Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
T_R is the elbow patch representative on the GH, isn't he?-PJ- wrote:Amen to that Botman.Botman wrote: ↑May 13, 2021, 8:55 pmThoughts and prayers to anyone who follows that code closely enough to answer this questionWiki Special wrote: ↑May 13, 2021, 7:25 pm Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
Botman wrote: ↑May 13, 2021, 8:55 pmThoughts and prayers to anyone who follows that code closely enough to answer this questionWiki Special wrote: ↑May 13, 2021, 7:25 pm Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
He's pretty average tbhRaiders_Pat wrote:The Brumbies flyhalf Noah Lolesio is pretty good. He's only 21 too. I don't think he has any background in league though but I reckon he's the type of guy who could potentially kill it in league. I reckon we could also look at union to pick up a yard eating winger.
Turner signed with Titans. 4th of May. So before your postRaiders_Pat wrote: ↑May 11, 2021, 7:09 pmExactly my thoughts on Croft. Dearden would be a great buy for us but he already signed with the Cowboys. The young halves still unsigned for next year are Tanah Boyd, Paul Turner, Phoenix Crossland, Cooper Johns - all 20/21 years old.Botman wrote: ↑May 11, 2021, 6:58 pm Croft was a good gamble for the Broncos a few years ago, those are the sort of gambles we should consider taking now... young guys who have flashed but for whatever reason are out of favour at their current club, i cant think of many of those guys off hand... if the Broncos get Reynolds and are intent on playing Staggs at 5/8th Dearden is probably going to be available... if we cant land a proven player or a better pedigree kid, that's the sort of gamble you might take.
But the Croft gamble has been made and lost, we dont need to double down on a losing ticket
Fog is a good game manager, kicker and goal kicker. Id take him. But pretty sure Titans love him and re-signed himGreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 9:39 am Deardon signed with the Cowboys.
G Williams 100% won't be here next season...
The two candidates I think the club will try to snare are Croft or Fogerty...
Both are underwhelming.
I'd rather we develop our youth option and invest more in the 1 to 5 positions.
works both ways, Sam Burgess was one of the best league players in the world and only 25/26 years old, and was pitiful as a union player, honestly he was woeful. even players like Rogers, Sailor, Tuqiri were in int/SOO superstars in the nrl but were very average footabllers on the world stage, they may have made the Australian side because of a massive lack of talent/depth but were never regarded as being amongst the top players in the world in there positions.
Yea wouldn't make any sense really when you can earn far more money in far more locations/competitions. you can earn big money and play accross the globe and then when you start to age and regress you can pick to go to Japan/France and collect double what you'd earn in the nrl for 3 months work deep in to your 30's
I think the carrot dangled in front of Sailor, Tiquiri and Rogers was the promise of a Wallaby jumper.kiwi raider wrote: ↑May 14, 2021, 9:22 amworks both ways, Sam Burgess was one of the best league players in the world and only 25/26 years old, and was pitiful as a union player, honestly he was woeful. even players like Rogers, Sailor, Tuqiri were in int/SOO superstars in the nrl but were very average footabllers on the world stage, they may have made the Australian side because of a massive lack of talent/depth but were never regarded as being amongst the top players in the world in there positions.Yea wouldn't make any sense really when you can earn far more money in far more locations/competitions. you can earn big money and play accross the globe and then when you start to age and regress you can pick to go to Japan/France and collect double what you'd earn in the nrl for 3 months work deep in to your 30's
He's exactly the kind of mid range option you could successfully pair with Wighton. But as you say they're not letting their captain go.Matt wrote: ↑May 14, 2021, 9:00 amFog is a good game manager, kicker and goal kicker. Id take him. But pretty sure Titans love him and re-signed himGreenMachine wrote: ↑May 12, 2021, 9:39 am Deardon signed with the Cowboys.
G Williams 100% won't be here next season...
The two candidates I think the club will try to snare are Croft or Fogerty...
Both are underwhelming.
I'd rather we develop our youth option and invest more in the 1 to 5 positions.