pickles wrote: ↑June 9, 2021, 2:46 pm
Doesn't make sense that a battle hardened team of professional athletes with rep or near rep talent would be unfit, even if they are capitulating at similar points in the game. Although I would disagree on this point. I think that we were previously capitulating in the second half of games but over the last month or so it seems to have got earlier and earlier in the game. To me that smacks of a lack of resilience and willingness to roll up the sleeves when under pressure rather than not having the ability to do so.
You see it in the NRL all the time, a team looks flat and beaten and a try against the run of play and they are running and tackling hard again. Clearly not the physical ability that was lacking.
One of the big differences this season has been the loss of Bateman, whatever you think about him he had the desire to win and the ability to demand that in others in a way that I don't think anyone in our current squad does. Other than Whitehead none of the other senior players in the team have been on the field consistently and when they have been they've been below par so that could also be a contributing factor.
We may be a little short of the mark on fitness. We have 4 guys regularly in the 17 who are coming back from long term injuries (ACLx2, LisFranc and whatever Guler had). That's a fair whack of our team feeling their way back. Then if the strength and fitness coach misses the mark by 5% or whatever we look awful.
I think it IS compounded by the new rules possession flow and @Mickeyraiders point about getting no head starts from our back 5 meaning our forwards all have to run an extra 20m to get back onside to start rucking out from the 15m line, instead of those little half breaks and barging runs we used t get from a BJ, or Cotric or Rapana so forwards got a bonus and started work from the 30m mark instead.
Now they've copped a beaten run and the confidence and harmony is shot.
It's a tough gig for a coach to get them back from here. Ricky needs to change the personnel and the play style.
Last time he did it he was going back to his happy place and natural coaching style- grinding defence shift from '16-'19 models. This time he needs to coach an attacking team with slick ball movement. I think he needs an assistant. Our '16 attack was just freaks like Leipana peaking together + Hodgo doing a bit with the forwards.
Defence is a combination of attitude and footy smarts (reading a play) - we seem to have neither at times
The second half meltdowns, I think it could easily be fitness. I'm not sure you can just say "oh there professional athletes, they should all be fit". Well they are fit, very fit, just not as fit relative to the other teams. It doesn't take much, if you're slightly slow getting back in the defensive line, or in pushing across, that can mean a try. And in the current rules, another and another set of defending and it just compounds
GreenMachine wrote: ↑June 9, 2021, 4:57 pm
The team is certainly unfit, however we also have the wrong types of players in order to control momentum under these new rules.
Too many similar big body types in the forward rotation (which would have worked in 2019) but not now..
Not enough mobility and leg speed to consistently drive the speed of the defensive line or attack with any threat...
Now while some players have outperformed our expectations this season (for example Sutton) it has come at a cost to the team's performance when Ricky has insisted that the 8, 10 and 13 be the same in terms of body type and output...
When you combine big boppers + repeated sets against you you get rapid fatigue, which is why were seeing second half meltdowns instead of first half blow outs...
Then there is the mental drain and how we seemingly end up with ground hog day the minute we skip to a lead and have the opposition mount any form of comeback...We've seen this with sports teams in the past...aside from Hodgo (who has had his own issues) we don't seem to have that personality who can snap the team's mindset back to where it should be when were leading, but seeing the opposing team resist and fightback.
On top of Dufty, I'd really like to see us recruit/promote an agile 13 who can ball play and an impact backline player to cover wing / centre..
Savage and hopefully CNK should have first crack at the other wing and centre spots.
I'd also like to see Sutton being used to spell Papali rather than play together in the middle...
1. Dufty
2. Savage
3. CNK
4. HSS/Kris/Timoko
5. New recruit - think 24-26 y/old type power player (say like Mamalo)
6. Wighton
7. Schneider or experienced halfback recruit
8. Papali
9. Starling
10. Tapine
11. CHN
12. Whitehead
13. New player (promote or recruit agile forward with offload)
14. Sutton
15. Young
16. Agile forward with offload
17. Schneider (Utility) / Agile forward
Some really good points here. We certainly seem to be lacking the on field leadership to steady the ship if things go against us. Not having Hodgson in a captaincy role and having Croker off the field would have left a gap in on field leadership especially in settling the team and guiding them back to the game plan.
I also agree that our squad isn't a good fit for the new rules. More important than top speed seems to be speed off the mark. Players who can get out of dummy half and make 8-10 and get a quick play of the ball or capitalise on a quick play of the ball are critical in building momentum and it's not evident in our back 5 or our pack. Unfortunately it seems like the bigger pack we have invested in is now a liability. Personnel changes do take time though and I wouldn't expect the club to play its plans for this out in the media so hopefully these are the discussions happening behind closed doors.
pickles wrote: ↑June 9, 2021, 2:46 pm
Doesn't make sense that a battle hardened team of professional athletes with rep or near rep talent would be unfit, even if they are capitulating at similar points in the game. Although I would disagree on this point. I think that we were previously capitulating in the second half of games but over the last month or so it seems to have got earlier and earlier in the game. To me that smacks of a lack of resilience and willingness to roll up the sleeves when under pressure rather than not having the ability to do so.
You see it in the NRL all the time, a team looks flat and beaten and a try against the run of play and they are running and tackling hard again. Clearly not the physical ability that was lacking.
One of the big differences this season has been the loss of Bateman, whatever you think about him he had the desire to win and the ability to demand that in others in a way that I don't think anyone in our current squad does. Other than Whitehead none of the other senior players in the team have been on the field consistently and when they have been they've been below par so that could also be a contributing factor.
We may be a little short of the mark on fitness. We have 4 guys regularly in the 17 who are coming back from long term injuries (ACLx2, LisFranc and whatever Guler had). That's a fair whack of our team feeling their way back. Then if the strength and fitness coach misses the mark by 5% or whatever we look awful.
I think it IS compounded by the new rules possession flow and @Mickeyraiders point about getting no head starts from our back 5 meaning our forwards all have to run an extra 20m to get back onside to start rucking out from the 15m line, instead of those little half breaks and barging runs we used t get from a BJ, or Cotric or Rapana so forwards got a bonus and started work from the 30m mark instead.
Now they've copped a beaten run and the confidence and harmony is shot.
It's a tough gig for a coach to get them back from here. Ricky needs to change the personnel and the play style.
Last time he did it he was going back to his happy place and natural coaching style- grinding defence shift from '16-'19 models. This time he needs to coach an attacking team with slick ball movement. I think he needs an assistant. Our '16 attack was just freaks like Leipana peaking together + Hodgo doing a bit with the forwards.
I'd agree that the rule changes do compound things. I think the NRL released some stat saying that teams weren't making more tackles but the number of tackles they are making in a row is a big factor. A set restart that turns a set into 8 or 9 tackles takes a lot of extra effort and what we have seen this season in a lot of games is that when a team get's on top they can easily run away with the game and rack up a big score.
The younger, faster teams like the Panthers definitely seem to be benefiting the most and when you see how quickly they get back onside and into attacking shape it is clear why we are nowhere near them. As one of the oldest teams in the comp and as you say, with some more broken bodies, it's hard to physically keep up in games where we just can't dominate the ruck like we used to.
I would love to see us string a couple of wins together, just to see how much that changed things. Realistically we are only 2 wins off 6th with the Broncos and Dragons in the next 2 weeks. If by some miracle we could win both of those games it would at least give the team some severely lacking confidence and we could see how much of this was purely psychological and what is more fitness, tactics and body shapes.
The regular second half meltdowns indicate both aspects are an issue. Particularly bad when your most experienced players are the majority of the problem.
When things get tough, heads are going down like they were in 2017.
Seiffert82 wrote: ↑June 10, 2021, 5:46 pm
Fitness and attitude often go hand in hand.
The regular second half meltdowns indicate both aspects are an issue. Particularly bad when your most experienced players are the majority of the problem.
When things get tough, heads are going down like they were in 2017.
Yeah the "attitude" card gets pulled out when your flogged by 50 or so...
It's meant to imply that you failed to do the things you were doing at Nil all , when the score got to 50 - Nil...I've never liked this notion, but that's another debate for another time...
I don't think our problems have been attitude.
I think they start with not having the right personnel to adequately execute a game plan for the current version of the game.
The by product is seeing how unfit the players look after they struggle to implement a 2019 game plan under the current rules...
Our backs don't do enough to support our forwards from our end and our forward play is "dated"...
Fitness didn't seem to be an issue on Saturday night... Maybe controlling the ball and building some momentum was more important. I also noticed that the strategy of forwards targeting in behind the ruck was effective when used on the back of momentum rather than against a set defensive line.
Our back five certainly did a good job of getting the team on the front foot and I thought Simonsen at full back probably played his best game this year in attack.
I realise that the Donkeys aren't the bench mark of anything positive but we certainly didn't capitulate which was a welcome change from the past few months of footy!
Seiffert82 wrote: ↑June 15, 2021, 3:12 pm
The team smelled blood in the water against the Broncos and played accordingly.
Conversely, when things get tough they throw in the towel.
Not overly endearing to be honest. It's an attitude issue.
To me it showed that they are physically capable against a weak team. How they back up this week against the Dragons is important.
One things about attitude and confidence is that winning makes a big difference and if we can string a few together I think we will see a different team.
Seiffert82 wrote: ↑June 15, 2021, 3:12 pm
The team smelled blood in the water against the Broncos and played accordingly.
Conversely, when things get tough they throw in the towel.
Not overly endearing to be honest. It's an attitude issue.
To me it showed that they are physically capable against a weak team. How they back up this week against the Dragons is important.
One things about attitude and confidence is that winning makes a big difference and if we can string a few together I think we will see a different team.
Yeah, I thought fitness was a big issue during our string of losses, but the way the boys were queuing up for the ball late against the Broncos showed how a bit of confidence against a poor team completely changed their demeanor.
I still don't think some of the forwards are in peak condition, but I'm sure our losses against the Cowboys, Rabbitohs and Knights were in large part due to not being mentally switched on.
