Coaching issues

[Seiffert82]

Worst spine in the comp combined with arguably the worst player in the NRL lining up at left centre (either HSS or Croker) goes a long way to making you the worst team in the comp.

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[Billy Walker]

Ouch

[Hong Kong Raider]

Ricky is not one of the worst coaches - 4 finals appearances in 9 is evidence of that. He's not a Trent Barrett. If Barrett coached say the 1990s Broncos team they wouldn't make the finals.

He's the type of coach good for Canterbury now - a rebuilding type coach to take a team off the bottom 4, playing safety first football. That's why Gus Gould was thinking about hiring him for two years before Cameron Ciraldo then comes in with the foundations in place to challenge for a premiership.

But Stuart is not an elite coach to challenge for a title. He is very limited in tactics and game plan. As Gus Gould has said previously, he has trouble coaching an attack. He's already lost 3 Grand Finals - two with the Roosters who were full of rep players. In 2004, Easts didn't score in the second half and they were all over Canterbury in the first half. In 2019, we kicked a penalty goal and had all the ball in Easts 20, 10 mins with 12 men. Still couldn't get over the line.

[Finchy]

I agree Ricky can't coach attack - but what the hell is the attack coach doing then?

[HoraceBigCigar]

Jason Demetriou: “I’m the head coach, it’s on me to make sure we’re better… I could sit hear and make excuses but it hurts. It’s a tough lesson to learn but I’ll learn it”.

[Billy Walker]

Jason Demetriou: “I’m the head coach, it’s on me to make sure we’re better… I could sit hear and make excuses but it hurts. It’s a tough lesson to learn but I’ll learn it”.

If I’m Jack, Trell, or a south’s fan and I hear that sort of accountability I would be feeling positive about 2024.

[Ruben Daley]

101:1 odds though to win the premiership still! Only ones with a chance and worst odds than us are the Cowboys (126:1), the Roosters are somehow 46:1?

And yeah this year may as well have been three wins and the rest losses, the feeling you got from watching the game was the same... Constantly giving up 12+ point leads really doesn't give you that "winning" feeling afterwards...

Honestly I enjoyed a few years where we didn't make the finals heaps more. I remember we were no hope by the 3/4 of the season in maybe 2018 but at least we blooded some young players, showed up for games and got a couple good wins still before the season was done!

This year was just doing the same every week, even if it epically failed the week before, then when we do finally change stuff it's all feels like going backwards... Moving players around out of position, blooding a few younger players but decided to put them out of position too or on the bench and giving them under ten minutes of game time... I just don't see ANY long term plan out of our current situation with-out some miracle signing of a player who breaks contract with their current club... We aren't even giving out young players the ability to step and and shine and instead we feel like a half way house for players who should have been over in the ESL or retired (Whitehead, Croker, etc).

What frustrates me the most is that Sticky has made me resent Jack Wighton. I have almost forgotten how great he was in 2019-2020 because he has been so poor the last 2 seasons. I'm actually happy to see the back of him, at least at 5/8 anyway. I don't blame Jack completely, I don't think Ricky has developed him or used him well.

I understand your feelings about Jack but not sure I agree with blaming Ricky.

Ricky did develop him - from a good fullback into a Dally M five-eighth. There is near consensus in this forum that Jack’s best position is centre but we needed a strong half and Ricky made Jack into one. It is a massive feather in Ricky’s cap.

A better coach may have built a structure that would’ve allowed Jack to maintain his peak form for longer and arrested Jack’s disturbingly rapid decline. But I think we need to acknowledge he didn’t get to be a dominant half on his own.

I also think the things that contribute to Jack’s poor form over the last two years aren’t attributable to Ricky. Kicking out on the full, passing out on the full, passing to an outside back who is certain to be tackled into touch, grubbering the ball dead by 20m - these are all skill and focus areas that the best halves don’t do because they work on their own games.

Listen to all the commentary and they all credit Nathan Cleary for perfecting his kicking game despite the numerous coaches that must’ve been involved. Bellamy enabled Munster to transition from fullback to five-eighth but Munster is credited with developing his unorthodox attack. DCE and Hunt’s longevity is their own making.

To be clear: I lament the complete lack of attacking strategy, innovation and tactics, and having those things would undoubtably have helped Jack. But I think Ricky did more than enough to develop him.

[gangrenous]

I also think the things that contribute to Jack’s poor form over the last two years aren’t attributable to Ricky. Kicking out on the full, passing out on the full, passing to an outside back who is certain to be tackled into touch, grubbering the ball dead by 20m - these are all skill and focus areas that the best halves don’t do because they work on their own games.

How much did he get away with lack of application errors because he was comfortable in his position and not challenged on it by his coach?

[Ruben Daley]

I also think the things that contribute to Jack’s poor form over the last two years aren’t attributable to Ricky. Kicking out on the full, passing out on the full, passing to an outside back who is certain to be tackled into touch, grubbering the ball dead by 20m - these are all skill and focus areas that the best halves don’t do because they work on their own games.

How much did he get away with lack of application errors because he was comfortable in his position and not challenged on it by his coach?

Maybe. But what kind of player routinely makes those absolute clangers over a long period and doesn’t do something about it himself?

The motivation to fix those things and become your best can’t just be whether you’re comfortable in your position.

[Botman]

I also think the things that contribute to Jack’s poor form over the last two years aren’t attributable to Ricky. Kicking out on the full, passing out on the full, passing to an outside back who is certain to be tackled into touch, grubbering the ball dead by 20m - these are all skill and focus areas that the best halves don’t do because they work on their own games.

How much did he get away with lack of application errors because he was comfortable in his position and not challenged on it by his coach?

Maybe. But what kind of player routinely makes those absolute clangers over a long period and doesn’t do something about it himself?

The motivation to fix those things and become your best can’t just be whether you’re comfortable in your position.

You know the coaches get paid too, right?
Like they have a role and responsibility to directly address stuff like this. It’s quite literally their job

If we just say this is all on the players, great. I’ll save the club 1-2m dollars a year. Get rid of the coaches, hire some idiot for 60k a year to mark attendance and schedule the training and let the players do it all themselves

[gangrenous]

Maybe. But what kind of player routinely makes those absolute clangers over a long period and doesn’t do something about it himself?

The motivation to fix those things and become your best can’t just be whether you’re comfortable in your position.

Absolutely it can.

Some players are driven to win and will fix it. Some players are driven to play and as long as they’re out there having fun it’s all good. Some players are driven by money, and particularly being comfortable cashing a mill each year and no threat to it stopping.

Which bucket or buckets you think Wighton fits in I’ll leave to you.

[Finchy]

Maybe. But what kind of player routinely makes those absolute clangers over a long period and doesn’t do something about it himself?

The motivation to fix those things and become your best can’t just be whether you’re comfortable in your position.

Absolutely it can.

Some players are driven to win and will fix it. Some players are driven to play and as long as they’re out there having fun it’s all good. Some players are driven by money, and particularly being comfortable cashing a mill each year and no threat to it stopping.

Which bucket or buckets you think Wighton fits in I’ll leave to you.

Considering Jack still gets paid and enjoys having a laugh with the opposition at full time after we lose, and it’s good to see, I’d say the last one

[gerg]

It’s a circular argument Ruben, but at the centre of that circle is the Head Coach.

[Ruben Daley]

I also think the things that contribute to Jack’s poor form over the last two years aren’t attributable to Ricky. Kicking out on the full, passing out on the full, passing to an outside back who is certain to be tackled into touch, grubbering the ball dead by 20m - these are all skill and focus areas that the best halves don’t do because they work on their own games.

How much did he get away with lack of application errors because he was comfortable in his position and not challenged on it by his coach?

Maybe. But what kind of player routinely makes those absolute clangers over a long period and doesn’t do something about it himself?

The motivation to fix those things and become your best can’t just be whether you’re comfortable in your position.

You know the coaches get paid too, right?
Like they have a role and responsibility to directly address stuff like this. It’s quite literally their job

If we just say this is all on the players, great. I’ll save the club 1-2m dollars a year. Get rid of the coaches, hire some idiot for 60k a year to mark attendance and schedule the training and let the players do it all themselves

Understood but do you think Ricky sat by idly while Jack made routine clangers? (Genuine question.)

I think there’s a difference between Ricky guaranteeing Jack his spot (which he’s clearly done) and completely washing his hands of providing Jack feedback, coaching or resources to improve.

I know a guy (high-level Aussie Rules coach and former AFL player) who was a specialist kicking coach with the team for a while and he worked specifically with Jack on technique. I’m sure he wasn’t the only one Ricky has used.

I suppose I just don’t think Ricky has watched what we’ve watched and said/done nothing. I also think Jack should’ve just got better by being a full-time NRL player for over a decade.

[gangrenous]

Understood but do you think Ricky sat by idly while Jack made routine clangers? (Genuine question.)

Obviously I have no idea, I have no insight day to day. So this opinion is meaningless.

However, my answer is yes. I would believe that Ricky did not address the clangers. I’m open to that when I wouldn’t normally be because:
* Ricky has shown a pattern of blaming external factors and overlooking faults with players he believes have earned it.
* The comments on Hindy’s hole from the player’s mouths that Jack could be late to training and someone else would be made to do laps
* A clear deficit of coaching other aspects of the game that I would consider mandatory (e.g. field goal structure)
* repetition of stupid mistakes as a common theme across the Raiders as a team. Suggests it is not a focus for the coach to get those right

[Botman]

Yep, well said gangers
Exactly my view on it

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it whilst I see. We do not look like a team that is well coached on fundamentals or details. And it’s been that way for a few years now

[gangrenous]

There you have it Ruben. You’re rule 72’d sorry.

[Ruben Daley]

Haha. I accept it then. Case withdrawn.

[Seiffert82]

Jason Demetriou: “I’m the head coach, it’s on me to make sure we’re better… I could sit hear and make excuses but it hurts. It’s a tough lesson to learn but I’ll learn it”.

Sounds exactly like a bloke who has absolutely no idea how to fix the issues, and a bunch of players who have shirked their responsibilities during this train wreck.

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[Seiffert82]

Maybe. But what kind of player routinely makes those absolute clangers over a long period and doesn’t do something about it himself?

The motivation to fix those things and become your best can’t just be whether you’re comfortable in your position.

Absolutely it can.

Some players are driven to win and will fix it. Some players are driven to play and as long as they’re out there having fun it’s all good. Some players are driven by money, and particularly being comfortable cashing a mill each year and no threat to it stopping.

Which bucket or buckets you think Wighton fits in I’ll leave to you.

Considering Jack still gets paid and enjoys having a laugh with the opposition at full time after we lose, and it’s good to see, I’d say the last one

100% agree.

Cameron Smith wasn't Cameron Smith just because of Craig Bellamy. Bellamy created an environment for Smith to thrive, but the rest is up to the player.

Watching a player plummet from the top of his game and the top of the comp down to the bottom of the pile, under the same coach, says a lot more about the player than the coach.

However if the current agenda is to focus on the limitations of our coach then it's easier to just blame the coach.

IMO it's bollocks. Like saying Wayne Bennett was solely to blame for Milford being the best on field in a grand final to a fat slob.

[Ruben Daley]

Maybe. But what kind of player routinely makes those absolute clangers over a long period and doesn’t do something about it himself?

The motivation to fix those things and become your best can’t just be whether you’re comfortable in your position.

Absolutely it can.

Some players are driven to win and will fix it. Some players are driven to play and as long as they’re out there having fun it’s all good. Some players are driven by money, and particularly being comfortable cashing a mill each year and no threat to it stopping.

Which bucket or buckets you think Wighton fits in I’ll leave to you.

Considering Jack still gets paid and enjoys having a laugh with the opposition at full time after we lose, and it’s good to see, I’d say the last one

100% agree.

Cameron Smith wasn't Cameron Smith just because of Craig Bellamy. Bellamy created an environment for Smith to thrive, but the rest is up to the player.

Watching a player plummet from the top of his game and the top of the comp down to the bottom of the pile, under the same coach, says a lot more about the layer than the coach.

However if the current agenda is to focus on the limitations of our coach then it's easier to just blame the coach.

IMO it's bollocks. Like saying Wayne Bennett was solely to blame for Milford being the best on field in a grand final to a fat slob.

Goddammit! This is the point I should’ve made before withdrawing my case!

[Ultima]

Well win or lose we are in the finals... Kinda embarrassing really... We could "make" the finals with a three digit negative F/A and off the back of two losses in a row, and no wins greater than 12 points!

Stuart is too close to the players to be objective, certainly to hold any of them accountable. He is quick enough have a bitch about things but doesn't actually follow through with any sort of action the majority of the time. He also seems to be stubborn to the point of insanity...

Players like Savage obviously aren't perfect but why let them waste away in reserve grade when at least they could be injecting some excitement into the first grade side? It's like he is so set on "we need to get the basics right" that NOTHING else matters... Possibly that's what has given players like Wighton such a slack attitude. He knows he can pretty much get away with anything and will still be selected regardless. Instead of focusing on attack, on practicing some of the freakish things Wighton use to do he is doing basic drills on fundamentals, etc.

The coach obviously has a massive influence on how the team plays and trains and that has a direct influence on what we see on the field. And what we see if Stuart being stubborn.

[Ultima]

This year:

[rayden83]

Guys, relax. I thought we lost the game today because we were crap, but according to RS we lost because we didn’t have luck on our side. We are lucky to have such a sharp mind leading our club who can distill these losses and get to the bottom of why they happen.

[Mickey_Raider]

One of the things I have notice is the talk of our “clunky attack”, or references to our attack “needing to click” have almost completely fallen away as the season has gone on.

It has fallen away as It has become obvious that not having a clue what to do in attack apart from 5 crash balls and a kick is a feature, not a glitch, of Rockyball.

To that end there is absolutely no point in deluding yourself into thinking we are magically going to lob up to games and start playing attacking footy worthy of a top 8 side.

We are who we are. A mid-low table team who can scratch out wins against poor opposition but offer nothing against proper sides.

One thing I was thinking about while driving today though was, these guys do video sessions. How can they not ****** see what we all see?

[Hong Kong Raider]

One of the things I have notice is the talk of our “clunky attack”, or references to our attack “needing to click” have almost completely fallen away as the season has gone on.

It has fallen away as It has become obvious that not having a clue what to do in attack apart from 5 crash balls and a kick is a feature, not a glitch, of Rockyball.

To that end there is absolutely no point in deluding yourself into thinking we are magically going to lob up to games and start playing attacking footy worthy of a top 8 side.

We are who we are. A mid-low table team who can scratch out wins against poor opposition but offer nothing against proper sides.

One thing I was thinking about while driving today though was, these guys do video sessions. How can they not ****** see what we all see?

Mickey, when was the last time that you saw the Canberra Raiders execute a backline movement in the 20 m zone with shape? I remember some outside the 20 like Wighton's try with 1 m left v Warriors (and these are also very rare), but I am struggling to recall ones in the 20 m zone. That's why we have so many tackles in the red zone without converting into points.

[Ultima]

Finally watched the press conference.

Media - "Are you seeing what you want from Wighton in the Centres?"

Stuart - "yep"

Media - "Are you seeing what you want from Frawley at 5/8?"

Stuart - "yep"

That is what he wants from Frawley?!?!?! Is Stuart even watching the games?

[BadnMean]

One of the things I have notice is the talk of our “clunky attack”, or references to our attack “needing to click” have almost completely fallen away as the season has gone on.

It has fallen away as It has become obvious that not having a clue what to do in attack apart from 5 crash balls and a kick is a feature, not a glitch, of Rockyball.

To that end there is absolutely no point in deluding yourself into thinking we are magically going to lob up to games and start playing attacking footy worthy of a top 8 side.

We are who we are. A mid-low table team who can scratch out wins against poor opposition but offer nothing against proper sides.

One thing I was thinking about while driving today though was, these guys do video sessions. How can they not ****** see what we all see?

I reckon they've seen Weekend at Bernies about 27 times.

[rayden83]

One thing I was thinking about while driving today though was, these guys do video sessions. How can they not ****** see what we all see?

The only video sessions Ricky does is making the team watch re-runs of Rocky before every game. Who needs technology and insight when you can channel the spirit of Rocky Balboa.

[Off]

And it then cuts to Rocky Stewart, in a hoodie with gloves running up the stairs of parliament house.

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[Hong Kong Raider]

Warriors have an inferior squad to us. If you swapped the coaches and Webster was in charge of the Raiders, we would be top 4 this year based on our draw, whilst Warriors would be bottom 4.

[Finchy]

Warriors have an inferior squad to us. If you swapped the coaches and Webster was in charge of the Raiders, we would be top 4 this year based on our draw, whilst Warriors would be bottom 4.

Can’t agree there. They have some no names in their squad, but they’ve also got some rep level talent in key areas that we don’t.

I agree with the coaching difference though. They were crap before this year with largely the same squad. Webster’s got them all performing well individually and as a team

[Hong Kong Raider]

Warriors have an inferior squad to us. If you swapped the coaches and Webster was in charge of the Raiders, we would be top 4 this year based on our draw, whilst Warriors would be bottom 4.

Can’t agree there. They have some no names in their squad, but they’ve also got some rep level talent in key areas that we don’t.

I agree with the coaching difference though. They were crap before this year with largely the same squad. Webster’s got them all performing well individually and as a team

No one on this forum was remotely interested in Shaun Johnson when he was available. Would Ricky have gotten the best out of him if he had joined us ? You and I know the answer to that.

Ditto CNK. He can actually chime in and not die with the ball. DWZ has had his best year and trumps Hoppa, Rapana and Cotric. Jackson Ford is a plodder but has played better than Young (at least post SOO) and Whitehead. Egan has been better than all our four hookers. AFB has been better than our rep props. Whose fault is that?

[-TW-]

CNK is having a season similar to 2019, which in turn has lifted them as a team.

I'd say having that security and stability back in his life has improved his output

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[Finchy]

Warriors have an inferior squad to us. If you swapped the coaches and Webster was in charge of the Raiders, we would be top 4 this year based on our draw, whilst Warriors would be bottom 4.

Can’t agree there. They have some no names in their squad, but they’ve also got some rep level talent in key areas that we don’t.

I agree with the coaching difference though. They were crap before this year with largely the same squad. Webster’s got them all performing well individually and as a team

No one on this forum was remotely interested in Shaun Johnson when he was available. Would Ricky have gotten the best out of him if he had joined us ? You and I know the answer to that.

Ditto CNK. He can actually chime in and not die with the ball. DWZ has had his best year and trumps Hoppa, Rapana and Cotric. Jackson Ford is a plodder but has played better than Young (at least post SOO) and Whitehead. Egan has been better than all our four hookers. AFB has been better than our rep props. Whose fault is that?

Isn’t that arguing that they don’t have an inferior squad, it’s just that we wouldn’t have been able to get the best out of them due to poor coaching? If they’re all playing better than our guys, maybe they are better than our guys