Coaching issues

[dubby]

Which players have gone backwards since joining the raiders? That's the way you judge coaches/the impact of anything. Take a snapshot before, baseline. Then measure the improvement, the affect.

Let's be reasonable here. Ricky haters, tell us, who's gone backwards?

I'm not a "Ricky hater", but I also don't think his **** doesn't stink.

I don't think what you've listed above is the only way to judge coaching. Plenty of players left the Raiders and played better footy elsewhere.

I would say the below list of players played worse footy since joining the Raiders (Ricky-era only). But I'm not silly enough to attribute all of that to "poor coaching". Some of it is age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc.

Just like the plenty of players that have come here and performed well isn't all down to "good coaching". Most of it is individual talent and self-driven determination or opportunity (like Tapine, Papa, Austin, Rapa, etc).

Sisa Waqa
Frank-Paul Nuuausala
Junior Paulo
Scott Sorensen
Dave Taylor
Charlie Gubb
Liam Knight
Curtis Scott
Corey Harawira-Naera
Ryan James
Caleb Aekins

Inkee, it's an own goal!

Waqa had a massive gambling problem

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation.

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response.

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day.

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity.

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us.

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him.

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL.


We gave life to
Blake Austin
John Bateman
Josh Hodgson
Sia soliola
Junior Paulo
Tapine

While eschewing
Joel Edwards
Jake Foster
Reece Robson
Adam Clydesdale
Jeremy Hawkins

And Charlie Gubb?

Dude was depth nothing more and played 5 games for us!!!

[Hong Kong Raider]

Dubby, Liam Knight’s football may have faded into obscurity but he’s a lucky bugger, right?

[Finchy]

Which players have gone backwards since joining the raiders? That's the way you judge coaches/the impact of anything. Take a snapshot before, baseline. Then measure the improvement, the affect.

Let's be reasonable here. Ricky haters, tell us, who's gone backwards?

I'm not a "Ricky hater", but I also don't think his **** doesn't stink.

I don't think what you've listed above is the only way to judge coaching. Plenty of players left the Raiders and played better footy elsewhere.

I would say the below list of players played worse footy since joining the Raiders (Ricky-era only). But I'm not silly enough to attribute all of that to "poor coaching". Some of it is age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc.

Just like the plenty of players that have come here and performed well isn't all down to "good coaching". Most of it is individual talent and self-driven determination or opportunity (like Tapine, Papa, Austin, Rapa, etc).

Sisa Waqa
Frank-Paul Nuuausala
Junior Paulo
Scott Sorensen
Dave Taylor
Charlie Gubb
Liam Knight
Curtis Scott
Corey Harawira-Naera
Ryan James
Caleb Aekins

Inkee, it's an own goal!

Waqa had a massive gambling problem

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation.

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response.

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day.

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity.

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us.

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him.

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL.


We gave life to
Blake Austin
John Bateman
Josh Hodgson
Sia soliola
Junior Paulo
Tapine

While eschewing
Joel Edwards
Jake Foster
Reece Robson
Adam Clydesdale
Jeremy Hawkins

And Charlie Gubb?

Dude was depth nothing more and played 5 games for us!!!

Can't agree there dubs, you're moving the goal posts. The question was who came to us and went backwards (played worse). Whilst I provided that list of names, there was a caveat that I was not putting their form down to poor coaching, but a range of factors such as age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc. My point being that Bluesbrother's assertion of a player improving or declining proves whether someone was a good coach or not. It's fallacious.

To your points on those players though:

Waqa had a massive gambling problem (Not in question. Comes under my "off-field" and "age" notation. However, his form for us was not as good as his form for the Storm).

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation. (FPN played much better footy at the Roosters and played 15 Tests for NZ. Did nothing with us except be a complete brain-dead ****).

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response. (I fail to see the comparison. Sorensen was a complete plodder. Now he looks a million bucks playing for the Panthers and winning premierships. Bring him back and he's back to plodder status. Clay Priest never achieved anything after leaving us. Chalk and cheese).

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day. (Dave Taylor did not play his best footy with us).

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity (Liam Knight is a plodder, but played far more consist first grade after leaving. Much like Mark Nicolls).

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us (CHN was a gun at Penrith and Canterbury, and played a few Tests for NZ. Never quite lived up to that form with us or played any more rep footy).

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him (James also comes under my "age" and "injury" notation. He did play worse for Brisbane. But he was wasn't as good playing for us as he was at the Titans, where he was an absolute gun, pre-injuries).

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL (Aekins looked very good at Penrith. So much so that the Panthers considered keeping him over Edwards. He's probably one of the worst players to play for us. The fact he's still playing poorly or in a poorer league doesn't matter. He played worse for us than for Penrith).

Anyway, all of this is silly because it's actually proving my point on two fronts - these players played better footy before coming to us, but that's not because Ricky is a poor coach.

[Finchy]

Dubby, Liam Knight’s football may have faded into obscurity but he’s a lucky bugger, right?

I hear his handling and stamina has improved.

[Seiffert82]

Which players have gone backwards since joining the raiders? That's the way you judge coaches/the impact of anything. Take a snapshot before, baseline. Then measure the improvement, the affect.

Let's be reasonable here. Ricky haters, tell us, who's gone backwards?

I'm not a "Ricky hater", but I also don't think his **** doesn't stink.

I don't think what you've listed above is the only way to judge coaching. Plenty of players left the Raiders and played better footy elsewhere.

I would say the below list of players played worse footy since joining the Raiders (Ricky-era only). But I'm not silly enough to attribute all of that to "poor coaching". Some of it is age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc.

Just like the plenty of players that have come here and performed well isn't all down to "good coaching". Most of it is individual talent and self-driven determination or opportunity (like Tapine, Papa, Austin, Rapa, etc).

Sisa Waqa
Frank-Paul Nuuausala
Junior Paulo
Scott Sorensen
Dave Taylor
Charlie Gubb
Liam Knight
Curtis Scott
Corey Harawira-Naera
Ryan James
Caleb Aekins

Inkee, it's an own goal!

Waqa had a massive gambling problem

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation.

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response.

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day.

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity.

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us.

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him.

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL.


We gave life to
Blake Austin
John Bateman
Josh Hodgson
Sia soliola
Junior Paulo
Tapine

While eschewing
Joel Edwards
Jake Foster
Reece Robson
Adam Clydesdale
Jeremy Hawkins

And Charlie Gubb?

Dude was depth nothing more and played 5 games for us!!!

Yeah, I take Finchy's point but there are a few sketchy examples there.

Dave Taylor's career was legitimately revived here as was Paulo's and CHNs.

Leilua, Austin and even Adam Elliott also had their careers revived here, and let's not forget Charnze who went from a nobody to one of the best NRL fullbacks. Soliola also played at an elite level with us for years.

Curtis Scott was always bog ordinary as was FPN (honestly) and Gubb. Waqa had massive off field issues, like Curtis Scott.

Scott Sorensen was on the Cronulla scrap heap for two years when he came here and made something of his career, like Hosking was before he got injured.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Stuart kills the career of players. It's quite the opposite.

Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk

[dubby]

Which players have gone backwards since joining the raiders? That's the way you judge coaches/the impact of anything. Take a snapshot before, baseline. Then measure the improvement, the affect.

Let's be reasonable here. Ricky haters, tell us, who's gone backwards?

I'm not a "Ricky hater", but I also don't think his **** doesn't stink.

I don't think what you've listed above is the only way to judge coaching. Plenty of players left the Raiders and played better footy elsewhere.

I would say the below list of players played worse footy since joining the Raiders (Ricky-era only). But I'm not silly enough to attribute all of that to "poor coaching". Some of it is age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc.

Just like the plenty of players that have come here and performed well isn't all down to "good coaching". Most of it is individual talent and self-driven determination or opportunity (like Tapine, Papa, Austin, Rapa, etc).

Sisa Waqa
Frank-Paul Nuuausala
Junior Paulo
Scott Sorensen
Dave Taylor
Charlie Gubb
Liam Knight
Curtis Scott
Corey Harawira-Naera
Ryan James
Caleb Aekins

Inkee, it's an own goal!

Waqa had a massive gambling problem

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation.

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response.

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day.

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity.

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us.

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him.

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL.


We gave life to
Blake Austin
John Bateman
Josh Hodgson
Sia soliola
Junior Paulo
Tapine

While eschewing
Joel Edwards
Jake Foster
Reece Robson
Adam Clydesdale
Jeremy Hawkins

And Charlie Gubb?

Dude was depth nothing more and played 5 games for us!!!

Can't agree there dubs, you're moving the goal posts. The question was who came to us and went backwards (played worse). Whilst I provided that list of names, there was a caveat that I was not putting their form down to poor coaching, but a range of factors such as age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc. My point being that Bluesbrother's assertion of a player improving or declining proves whether someone was a good coach or not. It's fallacious.

To your points on those players though:

Waqa had a massive gambling problem (Not in question. Comes under my "off-field" and "age" notation. However, his form for us was not as good as his form for the Storm).

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation. (FPN played much better footy at the Roosters and played 15 Tests for NZ. Did nothing with us except be a complete brain-dead ****).

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response. (I fail to see the comparison. Sorensen was a complete plodder. Now he looks a million bucks playing for the Panthers and winning premierships. Bring him back and he's back to plodder status. Clay Priest never achieved anything after leaving us. Chalk and cheese).

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day. (Dave Taylor did not play his best footy with us).

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity (Liam Knight is a plodder, but played far more consist first grade after leaving. Much like Mark Nicolls).

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us (CHN was a gun at Penrith and Canterbury, and played a few Tests for NZ. Never quite lived up to that for
m with us or played any more rep footy).

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him (James also comes under my "age" and "injury" notation. He did play worse for Brisbane. But he was wasn't as good playing for us as he was at the Titans, where he was an absolute gun, pre-injuries).

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL (Aekins looked very good at Penrith. So much so that the Panthers considered keeping him over Edwards. He's probably one of the worst players to play for us. The fact he's still playing poorly or in a poorer league doesn't matter. He played worse for us than for Penrith).

Anyway, all of this is silly because it's actually proving my point on two fronts - these players played better footy before coming to us, but that's not because Ricky is a poor coach.

No mate.

Why mention Waqa with a caveat that contradicts your argument?

FPN. You made another own goal. Yes we got him after a golden age at the Roosters. But he never wanted to leave. He said so himself. That is a motivation issue upon him.

Scott Sorensen looks good in a good team. Would you swap him for Young or Ata?

CHN never went backwards with us. He was always a limited defender. FGS Nz played Levi!

I never said Taylor played his best footy for us. But I did say he said Ricky was his best coach and was thankful for the experience in Canberra.

Reconsider your post re Aekins.

Penrith thought about keeping him over Edwards, yet Aetkins is playing 2nd tier footy while Edwards is in consideration for SOO and has played for Australia.

Great call!

[dubby]

Which players have gone backwards since joining the raiders? That's the way you judge coaches/the impact of anything. Take a snapshot before, baseline. Then measure the improvement, the affect.

Let's be reasonable here. Ricky haters, tell us, who's gone backwards?

I'm not a "Ricky hater", but I also don't think his **** doesn't stink.

I don't think what you've listed above is the only way to judge coaching. Plenty of players left the Raiders and played better footy elsewhere.

I would say the below list of players played worse footy since joining the Raiders (Ricky-era only). But I'm not silly enough to attribute all of that to "poor coaching". Some of it is age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc.

Just like the plenty of players that have come here and performed well isn't all down to "good coaching". Most of it is individual talent and self-driven determination or opportunity (like Tapine, Papa, Austin, Rapa, etc).

Sisa Waqa
Frank-Paul Nuuausala
Junior Paulo
Scott Sorensen
Dave Taylor
Charlie Gubb
Liam Knight
Curtis Scott
Corey Harawira-Naera
Ryan James
Caleb Aekins

Inkee, it's an own goal!

Waqa had a massive gambling problem

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation.

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response.

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day.

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity.

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us.

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him.

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL.


We gave life to
Blake Austin
John Bateman
Josh Hodgson
Sia soliola
Junior Paulo
Tapine

While eschewing
Joel Edwards
Jake Foster
Reece Robson
Adam Clydesdale
Jeremy Hawkins

And Charlie Gubb?

Dude was depth nothing more and played 5 games for us!!!

Yeah, I take Finchy's point but there are a few sketchy examples there.

Dave Taylor's career was legitimately revived here as was Paulo's and CHNs.

Leilua, Austin and even Adam Elliott also had their careers revived here, and let's not forget Charnze who went from a nobody to one of the best NRL fullbacks. Soliola also played at an elite level with us for years.

Curtis Scott was always bog ordinary as was FPN (honestly) and Gubb. Waqa had massive off field issues, like Curtis Scott.

Scott Sorensen was on the Cronulla scrap heap for two years when he came here and made something of his career, like Hosking was before he got injured.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Stuart kills the career of players. It's quite the opposite.

Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk

Indeed

Inkee is drinking the nickheads kool aid.

[Seiffert82]

I also don't think attributing 'good' attack years (points scored) to Ricky's good coaching is entirely objective either. Looks how we scored most of those points - was it structured attack based on a targetted game plan to exploit opposition weaknesses, or lucky crash-ball plays coupled with sheer individual brilliance (Leipana/Austin) that papered over other issues?

I think you're imagining that most other NRL teams have this wonderful free-flowing attack where **** players look like superstars in some magical 'structure' and somehow we are the exception to the rule. It's actually not true.

In the last decade I'd suggest only Penrith and Melbourne have had extended periods of consistently well structured attack and Penrith really only in the last 4 seasons.

But anyway, I think this is another topic where my thoughts differ from most.

Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk

[zim]

Dubby, Liam Knight’s football may have faded into obscurity but he’s a lucky bugger, right?

I hear his handling and stamina has improved.

Damn this feels like a good inside joke that's gone completely over my head. Someone help me out.

[dubby]

I also don't think attributing 'good' attack years (points scored) to Ricky's good coaching is entirely objective either. Looks how we scored most of those points - was it structured attack based on a targetted game plan to exploit opposition weaknesses, or lucky crash-ball plays coupled with sheer individual brilliance (Leipana/Austin) that papered over other issues?

I think you're imagining that most other NRL teams have this wonderful free-flowing attack where **** players look like superstars in some magical 'structure' and somehow we are the exception to the rule. It's actually not true.

In the last decade I'd suggest only Penrith and Melbourne have had extended periods of consistently well structured attack and Penrith really only in the last 4 seasons.

But anyway, I think this is another topic where my thoughts differ from most.

Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk

Consider Brisbane without Walsh.

Parramatta without Moses

As it was pointed out before, we are generally an above point scoring team under Ricky.

But hey, Leipana

[Finchy]

Which players have gone backwards since joining the raiders? That's the way you judge coaches/the impact of anything. Take a snapshot before, baseline. Then measure the improvement, the affect.

Let's be reasonable here. Ricky haters, tell us, who's gone backwards?

I'm not a "Ricky hater", but I also don't think his **** doesn't stink.

I don't think what you've listed above is the only way to judge coaching. Plenty of players left the Raiders and played better footy elsewhere.

I would say the below list of players played worse footy since joining the Raiders (Ricky-era only). But I'm not silly enough to attribute all of that to "poor coaching". Some of it is age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc.

Just like the plenty of players that have come here and performed well isn't all down to "good coaching". Most of it is individual talent and self-driven determination or opportunity (like Tapine, Papa, Austin, Rapa, etc).

Sisa Waqa
Frank-Paul Nuuausala
Junior Paulo
Scott Sorensen
Dave Taylor
Charlie Gubb
Liam Knight
Curtis Scott
Corey Harawira-Naera
Ryan James
Caleb Aekins

Inkee, it's an own goal!

Waqa had a massive gambling problem

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation.

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response.

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day.

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity.

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us.

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him.

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL.


We gave life to
Blake Austin
John Bateman
Josh Hodgson
Sia soliola
Junior Paulo
Tapine

While eschewing
Joel Edwards
Jake Foster
Reece Robson
Adam Clydesdale
Jeremy Hawkins

And Charlie Gubb?

Dude was depth nothing more and played 5 games for us!!!

Can't agree there dubs, you're moving the goal posts. The question was who came to us and went backwards (played worse). Whilst I provided that list of names, there was a caveat that I was not putting their form down to poor coaching, but a range of factors such as age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc. My point being that Bluesbrother's assertion of a player improving or declining proves whether someone was a good coach or not. It's fallacious.

To your points on those players though:

Waqa had a massive gambling problem (Not in question. Comes under my "off-field" and "age" notation. However, his form for us was not as good as his form for the Storm).

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation. (FPN played much better footy at the Roosters and played 15 Tests for NZ. Did nothing with us except be a complete brain-dead ****).

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response. (I fail to see the comparison. Sorensen was a complete plodder. Now he looks a million bucks playing for the Panthers and winning premierships. Bring him back and he's back to plodder status. Clay Priest never achieved anything after leaving us. Chalk and cheese).

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day. (Dave Taylor did not play his best footy with us).

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity (Liam Knight is a plodder, but played far more consist first grade after leaving. Much like Mark Nicolls).

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us (CHN was a gun at Penrith and Canterbury, and played a few Tests for NZ. Never quite lived up to that for
m with us or played any more rep footy).

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him (James also comes under my "age" and "injury" notation. He did play worse for Brisbane. But he was wasn't as good playing for us as he was at the Titans, where he was an absolute gun, pre-injuries).

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL (Aekins looked very good at Penrith. So much so that the Panthers considered keeping him over Edwards. He's probably one of the worst players to play for us. The fact he's still playing poorly or in a poorer league doesn't matter. He played worse for us than for Penrith).

Anyway, all of this is silly because it's actually proving my point on two fronts - these players played better footy before coming to us, but that's not because Ricky is a poor coach.

No mate.

Why mention Waqa with a caveat that contradicts your argument?

FPN. You made another own goal. Yes we got him after a golden age at the Roosters. But he never wanted to leave. He said so himself. That is a motivation issue upon him.

Scott Sorensen looks good in a good team. Would you swap him for Young or Ata?

CHN never went backwards with us. He was always a limited defender. FGS Nz played Levi!

I never said Taylor played his best footy for us. But I did say he said Ricky was his best coach and was thankful for the experience in Canberra.

Reconsider your post re Aekins.

Penrith thought about keeping him over Edwards, yet Aetkins is playing 2nd tier footy while Edwards is in consideration for SOO and has played for Australia.

Great call!

Dubs, you're missing what my point is. You're saying I'm kicking owns goals and contradicting my argument, but what do you think my argument is?

The statement I responded to was basically this: "Ricky is a good coach because players played better under him. Provide a list of players who played worse for us".

I provided a list of players who played worse footy for us, but outlined that it wasn't because Ricky is a poor coach, highlighting the fallacious nature of the first assertion.

[Finchy]

Yeah, I take Finchy's point but there are a few sketchy examples there.

Dave Taylor's career was legitimately revived here as was Paulo's and CHNs.

Leilua, Austin and even Adam Elliott also had their careers revived here, and let's not forget Charnze who went from a nobody to one of the best NRL fullbacks. Soliola also played at an elite level with us for years.

Curtis Scott was always bog ordinary as was FPN (honestly) and Gubb. Waqa had massive off field issues, like Curtis Scott.

Scott Sorensen was on the Cronulla scrap heap for two years when he came here and made something of his career, like Hosking was before he got injured.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Stuart kills the career of players. It's quite the opposite.

Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk

Seiff, you're as confused as dubs. I'm not arguing that Stuart kills the careers of players. There's plenty more examples of players that improved here under him, I'm not arguing against that. I provided a list of players who were worse here than their previous clubs in response to Bluesbrother's request, but clarified it wasn't due to poor coaching.

You and dubs then twist my argument as if I'm blaming Stuart for turning those players crap because he's a bad coach. That's not my argument.

[Bluesbrother]

Dubby, Liam Knight’s football may have faded into obscurity but he’s a lucky bugger, right?

He's doing something right HKR. Well done to him.

[Finchy]

Dubby, Liam Knight’s football may have faded into obscurity but he’s a lucky bugger, right?

I hear his handling and stamina has improved.

Damn this feels like a good inside joke that's gone completely over my head. Someone help me out.

He's currently dating Danika Mason from Ch 9.

[Seiffert82]

Yeah, I take Finchy's point but there are a few sketchy examples there.

Dave Taylor's career was legitimately revived here as was Paulo's and CHNs.

Leilua, Austin and even Adam Elliott also had their careers revived here, and let's not forget Charnze who went from a nobody to one of the best NRL fullbacks. Soliola also played at an elite level with us for years.

Curtis Scott was always bog ordinary as was FPN (honestly) and Gubb. Waqa had massive off field issues, like Curtis Scott.

Scott Sorensen was on the Cronulla scrap heap for two years when he came here and made something of his career, like Hosking was before he got injured.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Stuart kills the career of players. It's quite the opposite.

Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk

Seiff, you're as confused as dubs. I'm not arguing that Stuart kills the careers of players. There's plenty more examples of players that improved here under him, I'm not arguing against that. I provided a list of players who were worse here than their previous clubs in response to Bluesbrother's request, but clarified it wasn't due to poor coaching.

You and dubs then twist my argument as if I'm blaming Stuart for turning those players crap because he's a bad coach. That's not my argument.

All good mate, makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

I think I also get misunderstood, with people believing my arguments are entirely in defence of Stuart as a coach. He has some clear shortcomings and at time our attack looks way too one dimensional (repetitive barges up the middle). However, to a big extent I think that's influenced in a big way by who fills the 9 jersey.

It's by far the biggest frustration for me. I couldn't care less if our backline doesn't play with depth, or the fullback isn't a link player. We don't need that to be good. However since peak Hodgo we often look clueless out of dummy half attacking the line, except for brief moments with Woolford. I'm convinced it's largely the players we have in that spot. They are bad decision makers under pressure.

Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk

[zim]

Dubby, Liam Knight’s football may have faded into obscurity but he’s a lucky bugger, right?

I hear his handling and stamina has improved.

Damn this feels like a good inside joke that's gone completely over my head. Someone help me out.

He's currently dating Danika Mason from Ch 9.

[dubby]

I'm not a "Ricky hater", but I also don't think his **** doesn't stink.

I don't think what you've listed above is the only way to judge coaching. Plenty of players left the Raiders and played better footy elsewhere.

I would say the below list of players played worse footy since joining the Raiders (Ricky-era only). But I'm not silly enough to attribute all of that to "poor coaching". Some of it is age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc.

Just like the plenty of players that have come here and performed well isn't all down to "good coaching". Most of it is individual talent and self-driven determination or opportunity (like Tapine, Papa, Austin, Rapa, etc).

Sisa Waqa
Frank-Paul Nuuausala
Junior Paulo
Scott Sorensen
Dave Taylor
Charlie Gubb
Liam Knight
Curtis Scott
Corey Harawira-Naera
Ryan James
Caleb Aekins

Inkee, it's an own goal!

Waqa had a massive gambling problem

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation.

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response.

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day.

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity.

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us.

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him.

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL.


We gave life to
Blake Austin
John Bateman
Josh Hodgson
Sia soliola
Junior Paulo
Tapine

While eschewing
Joel Edwards
Jake Foster
Reece Robson
Adam Clydesdale
Jeremy Hawkins

And Charlie Gubb?

Dude was depth nothing more and played 5 games for us!!!

Can't agree there dubs, you're moving the goal posts. The question was who came to us and went backwards (played worse). Whilst I provided that list of names, there was a caveat that I was not putting their form down to poor coaching, but a range of factors such as age/off-field dramas/injury/development/etc. My point being that Bluesbrother's assertion of a player improving or declining proves whether someone was a good coach or not. It's fallacious.

To your points on those players though:

Waqa had a massive gambling problem (Not in question. Comes under my "off-field" and "age" notation. However, his form for us was not as good as his form for the Storm).

FPN never did anything after us either. His issues are not club related. Pure self motivation. (FPN played much better footy at the Roosters and played 15 Tests for NZ. Did nothing with us except be a complete brain-dead ****).

Scott Sorensen. Really? You're using him as an example? May as well use Clay Priest as a response. (I fail to see the comparison. Sorensen was a complete plodder. Now he looks a million bucks playing for the Panthers and winning premierships. Bring him back and he's back to plodder status. Clay Priest never achieved anything after leaving us. Chalk and cheese).

Dave Taylor told Andy Raymond that Ricky was his best coach and he still supports the Raiders till this day. (Dave Taylor did not play his best footy with us).

Liam Knight has faded into obscurity (Liam Knight is a plodder, but played far more consist first grade after leaving. Much like Mark Nicolls).

CHN had always had defence issues. But he played ok for us (CHN was a gun at Penrith and Canterbury, and played a few Tests for NZ. Never quite lived up to that for
m with us or played any more rep footy).

Ryan James went to Brisbane and did worse he actually played OK for us. Multiple injuries hampered him (James also comes under my "age" and "injury" notation. He did play worse for Brisbane. But he was wasn't as good playing for us as he was at the Titans, where he was an absolute gun, pre-injuries).

Caleb Aekins is playing Second division ESL (Aekins looked very good at Penrith. So much so that the Panthers considered keeping him over Edwards. He's probably one of the worst players to play for us. The fact he's still playing poorly or in a poorer league doesn't matter. He played worse for us than for Penrith).

Anyway, all of this is silly because it's actually proving my point on two fronts - these players played better footy before coming to us, but that's not because Ricky is a poor coach.

No mate.

Why mention Waqa with a caveat that contradicts your argument?

FPN. You made another own goal. Yes we got him after a golden age at the Roosters. But he never wanted to leave. He said so himself. That is a motivation issue upon him.

Scott Sorensen looks good in a good team. Would you swap him for Young or Ata?

CHN never went backwards with us. He was always a limited defender. FGS Nz played Levi!

I never said Taylor played his best footy for us. But I did say he said Ricky was his best coach and was thankful for the experience in Canberra.

Reconsider your post re Aekins.

Penrith thought about keeping him over Edwards, yet Aetkins is playing 2nd tier footy while Edwards is in consideration for SOO and has played for Australia.

Great call!

Dubs, you're missing what my point is. You're saying I'm kicking owns goals and contradicting my argument, but what do you think my argument is?

The statement I responded to was basically this: "Ricky is a good coach because players played better under him. Provide a list of players who played worse for us".

I provided a list of players who played worse footy for us, but outlined that it wasn't because Ricky is a poor coach, highlighting the fallacious nature of the first assertion.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

But if we're fair we can apply that regression to any player under any coach

[Finchy]

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

But if we're fair we can apply that regression to any player under any coach

That's kind of my point. In super simple terms:

Argument: Players play good, therefore coach good.
Players play bad, coach not bad, players are old/injured/off-field dramas.

My point: Why can't players play good because of talent/motivation/opportunity/development?

Coaching plays it's part, but if players playing badly isn't the coaches fault, then the coach shouldn't get all the praise when the players are playing well.

[The Nickman]

Why even have a coach then, is always my answer to that. Is he just there to fill up the water bottles?

[Finchy]

Why even have a coach then, is always my answer to that. Is he just there to fill up the water bottles?

Come on Nickman, that’s not my argument. The coach bears some responsibility for both good performances and poor performances. But not all responsibility.

Is Jordan Rapana a good player because of good coaching or his own competitive nature and athletic ability? Conversely is Levi a **** player due to poor coaching or because he just isn’t very good?

Ricky’s job is to bring the best players together to perform as a team and stick to a game plan, and attack and defend within that structure.

Some players are just naturally better than others and individual performances cannot be solely attributed to the coach, good or bad.

[Mr Squiggle]

If we're being fair. 11 years is way too long for anyone to hold any position without achieving success or without demonstrating a clear upward trend indicative of imminent success.

The spine is the most critical combination and roster retention challenge in Rugby League. After 11 years, Ricky arguably has a worse spine than what he inherited. There's no excuses for this, just a litany of objectively bad decisions, that he refuses to accept responsibility for and isn't held accountable for.

[NoMan]

If we're being fair. 11 years is way too long for anyone to hold any position without achieving success or without demonstrating a clear upward trend indicative of imminent success.

The spine is the most critical combination and roster retention challenge in Rugby League. After 11 years, Ricky arguably has a worse spine than what he inherited. There's no excuses for this, just a litany of objectively bad decisions, that he refuses to accept responsibility for and isn't held accountable for.

Milford, Mcrone, 1 leg Campese and Buttriss is pretty bad.

[Seiffert82]

If we're being fair. 11 years is way too long for anyone to hold any position without achieving success or without demonstrating a clear upward trend indicative of imminent success.

The spine is the most critical combination and roster retention challenge in Rugby League. After 11 years, Ricky arguably has a worse spine than what he inherited. There's no excuses for this, just a litany of objectively bad decisions, that he refuses to accept responsibility for and isn't held accountable for.

Milford, Mcrone, 1 leg Campese and Buttriss is pretty bad.

Haha, yeah I love this stuff.

There was a thousand threads about Dave Furner destroying our roster before he was sacked.

Same old.

Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk

[dubby]

Why even have a coach then, is always my answer to that. Is he just there to fill up the water bottles?

Come on Nickman, that’s not my argument. The coach bears some responsibility for both good performances and poor performances. But not all responsibility.

Is Jordan Rapana a good player because of good coaching or his own competitive nature and athletic ability? Conversely is Levi a **** player due to poor coaching or because he just isn’t very good?

Ricky’s job is to bring the best players together to perform as a team and stick to a game plan, and attack and defend within that structure.

Some players are just naturally better than others and individual performances cannot be solely attributed to the coach, good or bad.

Totally agree with you

[The Nickman]

Hahaha suck on that one, Finchy!

[Coastalraider]

Watch this in slo mo and see how the 2 forwards 17/11 run opposing lines to the half, centre and winger to engage the defensive line, create an overlap where there wasn’t one, and put a winger through untouched.

Not complex, but bloody hard to defend against as if the defenders stay wide you run a forward into a one on one anyway. Not something I see us doing.

[The Nickman]

Watch this in slo mo and see how the 2 forwards 17/11 run opposing lines to the half, centre and winger to engage the defensive line, create an overlap where there wasn’t one, and put a winger through untouched.

Not complex, but bloody hard to defend against as if the defenders stay wide you run a forward into a one on one anyway. Not something I see us doing.

That's not coaching though, that's just a lucky coincidence where everybody ran the right line in that instance to make something happen out of nothing.

Coaching and practicing structure or set moves can't help attack, apparently.

[The Nickman]

Might just bump this thread for Ultima so he doesn’t have to go looking for it

[Ultima]

Can we sack EDIT already? Absolute garbage... We look like we have never **** played together before!!! Our most experienced players are the ones doing the worst! Get rid of Stuart before he ruins all the young talent we have coming through!

[The Nickman]

You’re welcome, U.

[Mickey_Raider]

As I said the other week. In the 20 we scrap, fight, grind and bleed for every rare try we score.

Meanwhile, even bad teams just stroll right through us with rudimentary attacking shapes.

So our attack is more or less trash and our defence is more or less trash too.

Sometimes against poorer teams we capitalise on overwhelming possession and territory through what is or should be a superior forward pack.

But it isn’t just a coincidence that we routinely get steamrolled against teams with actual structures who turn up to play.

What I don’t get though is Rocky has the most secure job in the comp with all the resources in the world at his disposal. He has all the time in the world. The raiders are a rich club.

He has the luxury of time, rebuild and resources other clubs don’t. He could steer us to consecutive wooden spoons and he wouldn’t be under pressure which no other coach could get away with.

So Why can’t he bring someone in who has a modicum of a clue about how to construct an attack in the red zone? Why? Why doesn’t he just confront our flaws head on and do something about it, knowing he is immune from the consequences of it goes pear shaped in the short term?

It is really perplexing how we just keep running it back with the same fundamental flaws year on year. With all indications that they are gearing up to extend him to keep perpetuating the same insanity for another 5 years at least.

[Hong Kong Raider]

Ricky couldn't coach an attack if he tried to. And looks like he cannot coach defence as well. The line speed has been poor.

The coach cannot attract existing FG players that want to play under him so he needs to buy youth and pay overs. But I don't trust him with the youth at all.

This club has no accountability.

[-PJ-]

Ricky couldn't coach an attack if he tried to. And looks like he cannot coach defence as well. The line speed has been poor.

The coach cannot attract existing FG players that want to play under him so he needs to buy youth and pay overs. But I don't trust him with the youth at all.

This club has no accountability.

We have a attack coach and a defence coach, neither is Rocky..

[Andymachine]

That was hard to watch. I can't be bothered typing out a long analysis. We just absolutely suck in every way at the moment and it's not just that we've lost some key players. Our team has no idea what to do in attack, our line speed lets the opposition stroll upfield so easily every game, and our goal line defence is swisse cheese.

[PerthRaider86]

He needs to be moved to a player manager or something and we need fresh eyes and ideas than this dribble we have had for the last 10+ years

But of course you will have the Ricky lovers who will ask, who's better out there. Who do you bring in.